Jump to content
Universal Psychic Guild Forum

Noir

Members
  • Content count

    77
  • Joined

  • Last visited

Community Reputation

0 Neutral

2 Followers

About Noir

  • Rank
    Member
  1. I will certainly have fun with this =) Actually, that's karma, a living breathing entity that dictates the experiences a person has. That is also a scholarly definition used in various different sources of Asian study for hundreds of years. Now if you consider it peasant, it is probably because you hold a higher than thou attitude. Which of course is perfectly fine. However, that's a huge reason why several masters don't teach more people - because of an assumed idea of bullish westerners that assume to know the concept and won't unyield to understand the master's interpretation of the phenomenon. In this case, how can you fill a tea cup that's already full of water? Much of what you post is in a similar vein, but I'm choosing to represent that point. And to that I say, perfectly well. But such a stance truly stymies you from something I feel is quite fantastic. And it is with sheer irony that you hold such an attitude and never ever studied, never experienced the other side, and yet you give a stance as if you're an authority. I can send a CV of all of my teachers over the past three years, who are pretty big figures within tao. Both of whom have some notoriety for both good and bad things. Can you do the same? I mean you probably can because you know so much about it and conclude as such without seeing such phenomenon, right =) Actually...I have. Way to go psychic =/ 2010 we had a few demonstrations of another teacher who performed 2 tasks. One of which was draw essence from a turtle and draw the essence of a bull - which led to their deaths. Same thing occurred with a tree previously as well as a good healing afterward. I'm shocked you didn't pick that up. In addition, let's not forget any master who deems that they have taught someone in a way that would ultimately lead to their detriment would kill immediately. Even Liping...So I'm afraid so far with your posts you're way off base. Although, it's probably due to above, which is fine. Bravado and the like. But now live that other side. Which you sort of haven't. Same with medicine, same with a myriad of other things. Anyone, and I mean anyone, can stand back on their heels and say it is this way. I mean I surely did for a long time. Didn't experience one iota of things. I thought omg because I read a book or two, things are this way. When in fact, experiencing the phenomenon woke me up. But I'm just preaching to a wall. Anyone got a sledgehammer =) No I'm serious. But again, how could you know what stillness is? I mean you even got it wrong that I never saw people die from such things...le shrugs =/ So let me see if I grab this. You assume things, but then when you realize something as simple as stillness, you have no idea...fascinating indeed. When stillness is at heart every single concept that has been listed by me in this thread. So then, why would I, take you as an authority here? If I'm an objective viewer of this thread, what makes you an authority? But then the opposite can be said of me What makes me an authority? I'm not. I'm just a guy that was blessed with a myriad of experiences that sees a better way for mental cultivation that is easily verified through the past beliefs regardless of belief system. But that's just me. It doesn't make me an authority, but I am someone that's experienced everything I listed in this thread. In addition, you should probably read up on I Ching. Your under grossed estimation of yin and yang, which underlie much of reality in terms of chinese cultivation is quite wrong. May I suggest reading Chuang Tse, who in the past, paved a large way of binding yin and yang in the body leading to generation of taiji qi? But then what is this taiji qi anyway? Best start to research...come back to the thread after that. At least then we will be on the same page. But it's just a suggestion. Not mandatory. Knowing a bit from how you post, you may not read. But that's your karma... And Victoria thanks because it was a bit bizarre. I posted the thread before I left for the last day of the convention. Odd it just disappeared
  2. Oh karma, seems you have done yourself a good thing ol' gal Karma is not just yin and yang. To say that denotes some further explanation almost immediately (as well as some disrespect of culture's traditions and teachings - which in its place is a bad thing). That said... Within our world, there are constants, no matter time or space or even planet. One constant is the body; being seen as a "lower" level in terms of spiritual hierarchy (won't get into the details unless you want a very long diatribe of life according to tao and vajra traditions), an intermediate level that drives many processes, and the conscious mind that serves as the primary gateway of many experiences in material reality. However, that doesn't explain everything about reality. Why do we meet good person A or bad person B? Karma. It is a living, breathing entity underlying reality composed of the total sum of our past goods and our past bads that ultimately leads to God giving humanity the good ol' second (or multiple) try. In this, karma drives a lot in terms of tradition. In the past, it was karma to determine whether an individual would escape reincarnation and lead the lineage for new practitioners. It's also karma that dictates condition of health and status in this world. The most extreme argument is that every experience an individual has is due to a karma of past and present. No soul mates here or twin soul beliefs here (even though they can be relevant in a theoretical discourse, I've not heard of it coming up in the beliefs but open to it). Each action, each experience is punctuated by timing and seasons. Much of the planning is karma. One of my teachers told me (during my very first lesson) that much of reality we don't have a choice in matters (as indicated above). Karma does dictate everything, including drive and inclination toward things and experiences. Yin and yang is a completely different, yet similar bag of tea in that yin and yang do create what we see and how we see it. Especially in terms of development. But it isn't karma. Yin and yang is a distinct aspect of reality to which I really only know the descriptions according to manisfestations of energy in and out of the body (frankly I should know that). Granted, I Ching binds it to everything without exclusion, but in terms of karma, there's a deisgnation. In terms of human nature and experience, again karma. Not every experience, not every nature is the same nor will it ever be. Are there some aspects that overlap at times? You betcha! So many can learn from it and burn the connection an indivdiual has. The ultimate goal of both tao and buddhist traditions (at least the esoteric ones that escape reincarnation) is to burn the threads of karma you have to others to free your heart and continue your personal evolution. This path is again one of detachment. But it doesn't mean that an individual rises above the human experience. Unless they're a level 72, initiate the light body and yada yada yada. It's been written in Buddhist texts before. Take a read of it. It's actually quite enlightening (pardon the pun). I think a consistent aspect of humanity is in spite of the myriad changes throughout time, unfortunately we as a species have not changed. It is sad, but also quite fascinating to push the boundary of technological evolution but still have the social graces of a dust mite. Sad...But in the grand scheme of things, a very good thing. Cultural interpretation. While many have beliefs against such a thing, I won't be idealistic to say someone who has bound yin and yang and escaped reincarnation hasn't killed or been affiliated with people who have killed and conquered. Burden of the beast. This is the path of power. Emphasis on opening mind and heart is a drastic turn from the power aspect of it all. More like, we have to meet them at their level. Some masters and teachers are extremely helpful. Others not so much. Others have been burned due to meddling of the west and what one calls it raping our traditions. But again that is the diversity of it all. I mean Wang liping is extremely approachable in that he holds several seminars to teach westerners nei gong and meditation. Not everyone is like Wang of course, but he is respected for what he has contributed to a relatively large growing group of people who want to study Eastern concepts in the West. One lesson I learned is that in order to meet a master at a high level you must be able to be in stillness for 2 hours. It's not an easy feat...lol. AT ALL. Frankly, MTD lineage will always say it is about love and everything being good. No yin and yang, just acceptance and experience while learning of the world. It isn't lao tse's tao, because that is one that honestly I won't see come to the light of day anytime soon. But contemporary traditions have, and of course there are sparse mo pai teachings here and there. But this is a nice tangent. Who said you made the choice? Playing devil's advocate (you know I love doing that) what if the sum of the experiences were driving you to this conclusion - one that can change within a nanosecond? Choice is a powerful thing. But ultimately, in terms of influence and life, we really don't have a choice. We are open to both choices and also no choice, but the intonation that has driven spirituality post secret is that life can be controlled such that I [not me] can get whatever I desired. That's not necessarily the case. You can't get whatever you want. And to try stymies the entire lived experience and attaches to an idea that may never come to fruition try as you might. On a personal level, I always say to my students or my friends to never make my mistake and to be better than I could ever be at that point in my life. Part of that is not attaching to that idea. And the cacophony of ideas that drive such a belief. My thought is that the natural state doesn't exist. Some have a natural inclination to meditate - karma. Some do not - karma. The driving force behind what is "natural" is our karmic stock. And while there is a disagreement, I don't mind. I enjoy them. A lot. An exchange of ideas is just so darn Socratic right? Ring any fun bells for you =) From the time I wrote and posted this, it seemed it disappeared. Very interesting. Thank god I type my posts beforehand and keep a photographic record of my time stamps
  3. sorry for the lack of posting I had to cover an event in Chicago and had some fantastic fun with Fujitsu, Dell, HP, and Lenovo for new Windows 8 products. Very fun time to be had. But nevertheless it is time to respond. To preface, I want to kill this human nature thing first immediately. One thing I only touched on is the role that karma has on our lives. I've mentioned it in some ways, but even I forgot it in the sense of this conversation especially in terms of human nature. Sufficed to say is this - there's no such thing as a consensual human nature (natural order). The entire notion that we are not supposed to be sick, healthy organisms and so on is (and pardon my language) a crock of bull. I say this for a variety of different reasons. One of which is from the people I've met. They are extremely powerful men and have escaped the circle of reincarnation (and thus become immortal). And yet, at the top of this mountain, does this mean that people are invulnerable? No. Does it mean that a person doesn't get sick? No. Johm Chang gets sick. My teachers (who have achieved this level of nei gong) still get sick. They still get tired and don't want to do things. They eat, drink and smoke like anyone else (include having sex). My point in listing these anecdotes is that they still live the human experience, just like everyone else. One thing that is latent in knowledge of spirituality is this emphasis that a person becomes this meek and all loving being. Absolutely NOT! Nothing could be further from the truth! Hence the point being, you have high level masters who have the social graces of a neanderthal man (and it is no disrespect to their high level because they can kill with just a finger being raised). But again, it is the human experience. And in that human experience, the driving force behind behavior is not necessarily dictated by choice. It is dictated by our karma, our ming, whatever you want to call it at this point. It is the sum of your family's burden's and your own burdens in this sense of reality that is truly the drive of your experience. Whether you have the drive to become a doctor, a nurse, a clinician, drink, become a stripper, porn star, and so on - that's karma. Paradoxically, this presents a very un-western attitude in that this aspect that ultimately we have no choice in the matters at hand. At least, in the sense of rational thought and philosophy that permeated the West post 13th century. But again, that's your nit pick. And that's fine if you disagree. For a long time, I did too because it is a very tough pill to swallow. But you must think of something in this way: You'd rather believe in unicorns and fairies, and not that the drive toward what we do is to burn the karmas we have accumulated for several lives leading to an ultimate cleanse and better living no matter whether you reincarnate or not? Yeah. Talk about making sense of that one... And yet, with that said, much like all things, one shouldn't necessarily go into this extreme apathy because of it. The reality is you shouldn't be apathetic that you have no choice in experiencing some things. There shouldn't be this point to where you wait for things to happen to you and argue you have no choice. We are humans and animals of movement - we move toward the experience. But we do so with the trust that all is God and God is good. In that simple understanding, you lose a lot of the things you once held to be routinal for us. The eager to know about the future leaves, because it is unnecessary. You are already full with the trust and love of God. Fill me, oh lord with thy desire, for all that know not thee. The above point is a unique one. In spite of karma changing the cyclic drive and underlie beliefs, human nature, and experience, we still have a natural voice. The reforming of the natural voice is cyclically related to the conscious mind and serves as the primary process of spiritual enlightenment especially in yang shen dao and other beliefs that work on mental purification. Is it ironic that I take this stance? Sure it is - how can a guy say that human nature is karma, and then say we have a consensual voice? We sort of do. The voice is one of balance, not necessarily one of innocence. In this, it is huge to speak from the heart and let go of the emotional balance to reunite the disparate consciousness and lead to the initial process of spiritual awakening (foundational practice). Many schools have different ways of doing it, and I have my own way given to me from various different Chinese practices. Kosta Danaos, author of the Magus of Java, indicates that the point in which we are fully open is indescribable. However, there are some similarities that he has noted and I can definitely agree with: 1. Orientation of the spine - it's extremely erect. The spine is important in actually most major religious belief systems and medical systems. Western or Eastern, the spine is key 2. Balanced - the balance here is one based on mental, emotional and energetic balance. Yin/yang, prana/apana, whatever system you use, the individual is balanced. That much I can say There are a few others for the purpose of finding other high level teachers, but those two are good enough in terms of the driving point. There are a lot of ways to reunite the conscious mind, heal oneself from extreme psychological disorders and damaging experiences leading to changes in body and mind, but typically the teachers of those methods have those two things. No matter what age, no matter what ethnicity, those two things stick out in my mind above all others. From this point, there are two unique thoughts that are latent - emphasis on karma being a driving force of human nature (natural order) and an actual natural voice. One other thing that seems to be a nagging thread is the emphasis of material reality and the meaningful and meaninglessness. I am reminded of a very high level Indian master from the 20th century (yes that is not a typo) and a story one of his disciples told and wrote in a book. In it he said he was very hungry after a deep meditation. But the only thing around them was rotting flesh and trash. With a wave of his hand, the rotting flesh became the most beautiful and large meal that the disciple had ever seen. Similarly, my teacher's master would hold events for scientists to investigate his abilities. He projected his energy and for days the scientists would only taste his sweet energy. The bible indicates a similar story of Jesus performing both of these feats in a massive way. Well, what's the point here? Reality is mind and that's all it really is. Deeper levels of many different philosophies attest to the nature of reality being actually quite unreal (I believe Bohm also indicated a similar conclusion in the holographic universe theory as well as other prominent quantum physicists). It's all energy and in many ways, there shouldn't be such care about it. However, in terms of diet, you want to have things that are rich in energy. IN terms of what occurs, those are affairs that really don't phase me because it isn't my karma to be phased by them. Specifically, this note is for Sascha. If it is your karma to become an eco activist to research the negative aspects of many things in terms of technology, that's perfectly brilliant actually. It's something I've done in the short life I've lived. But I also know that understanding the other side (the medical and technical side) is extremely important to promote a balanced agenda. A few years ago, I would've reviled at the idea of me, as a clinical psychologist, would administer medication. However, there are some cases that it is necessary. Is it meant to be forever? Not necessarily. No medication (alternative, western, eastern) is meant to be forever. But the point is this. I beg you. Understand the balance. Study it, understand it. Then lobby it - if that is your karma that is. Now to address a few other things I'm actually quite disappointed here. As I read the quote in question a million times today, I am at a bit of a loss. I don't think the point here is that we do disagree (in fact I like a fun disagreement as long as we still stay on topic - its how I taught my students, it's how I help clients, and so on). So let me see if I grab this - the notion here, that I wish someone to have balance, see both good and bad, is arrogant? Or is it the intonation that how dare I say I have found a perspective (an observation if you will) that contradicts your own? Do you know the story of that quote? Doubtful, but to make a long story short, someone very close to me told me that as she was months away from dying. You may have known her (Rafiala in the room), and she told me those words on my birthday. Not one of my favorite birthdays because of things that occurred but it is what it is. Nevertheless, the wish of someone well is arrogant? Fascinating. But even more fascinating is the second question - the intonation that I demand that there is a truth? That somehow this leads to arrogance. To this, my former teacher, I say this: So what? Afraid of the big bad boogie man known as arrogance? We're human. We're arrogant, we are prideful. That is something I don't deny anymore. In fact, to argue a sense of being while denying aspects that are a part of the gamut of emotions and feelings that make us human is silly. Not because denying what is considered bad is stupid, but leads to a person not being open and blocks their heart. The teachings I have are similar to that of Mahayana Buddhism that stresses love and heart above many things. It also stresses acceptance. So what if I do come off as arrogant to you? To that I offer a counterpoint: If our experience is karma, and material reality is mind, what cobwebs are you hiding from to project such a thing where there wasn't any arrogant intent derived? Interesting question eh =) Of course, let's spin this bottle another way shall we? REAL TRUTH? Ya know, that threw me for a bit. But then, there is no "truth" beyond perception, I'm sure you know that. But there is consensus correct that drive truth, theory, and even verifiable fact that such events occur and lead to some transformation. The question is where? It's actually closer than you think. Actually, pick up the bible. Then pick up the tao te ching. Pick up a study on Eastern tradition and folktales of immortals (such as the guide to oriental classics by Theodore deBary or Sources of Chinese Tradition), The ling bao, the secrets of the Golden Flower (cleary translation). The list of books can go on and on and on. But there is a point. There isn't one truth, but there surely is a consensus for an individual on the path of surpassing reincarnation that has been recorded for thousands of years extant in several different belief systems. When there is a consensus, of course, well it's somewhat closer to something that is true. You know, without the experience of someone who has already performed the processes. So what is real truth? I wouldn't have the foggiest idea of what happens in some ways. But what I do know is this - errant visualization of matters going away, wrapping things around a pink light and a happy bow with a tie is not a truth of mine. Not because it isn't bad, but because it doesn't work. But again, ymmv =) Which ironically brings us back to what's the point. Which is quite simple That is the point. Post number one =) A call for a conscious revolution. Get rid of the overzealousness and get back to bonafide progress. That is, if it is your karma...
  4. What is reality but an area that is simply a hologram used for the ultimate purpose of learning? I enjoy computers and anything technological and I have observed aspect of biomodding specifically with keen interest because it pushes humanity to a level that could change the evolution of our species toward a unique end. That said, integrating the use of technology into the ways of the past are similar to me integrating the philosophy of the past in my clinical sessions, or in my previous support jobs or tutoring positions. When you start to walk the path, you naturally integrate absolute truth in your life and it only augments the skills and expertise you already bring. In addition, it also aids in easing the stress and tension you may have with undergoing the myriad changes within any industry. Do I think technology can lead to easier methods of achieving the levels of the past? Yes and no. Yes because in theory one can use technology to aid in relaxation, but it can also create an attachment. That's something that many try to get rid of. I bought my sister an ipad last year (ipad 2 actually when it first came out). And I noticed recently she was using a brain wave generator to sleep. So I asked, has it improved your sleep? She said she thought it did, and continued to say there was no way she could sleep without it. Take note of the example for a variety of different reasons. You need to have a brain wave generator to sleep indicates a mental attachment when one isn't necessary. The perceived belief of relaxation is what creates the attachment. And yet, it doesn't beat good old fashioned relaxation! In this path, you don't go super far without understanding attachment and karma. We have our own karmas to burn to that are interrelated in our attachments. Making progress is also indicative of burning the karma and not being attached to things. It's okay to like things, and crave things as well. But understand that these are different manifestations of energy in the body. In many ways you don't have to give in fully leading to attachment. Just observe and be. When you can do that, you can honestly say you are living. So I guess the answer is a catch 22 as I am holding a HTC One X. Do I like the phone? Sure. Am I attached to the phone? Nope. If I have to get rid of it, I do so. Because ultimately it is inconsequential to the grand scheme of way.
  5. the elusive chapter 48 of the tao te ching. I am a bit lucky in that both comments seem to correlate with that chapter as well as provide a means as to the stance I've taken. That being, as much as sascha has indicated his disdain for advances that take away from what he feels is the natural order, this is not the order that lao tzu is referring to; nor is any immortal in their respected writing or teaching. In fact, the natural order is an inclination to allow everything to happen because when you are practicing the way, you are separating yourself further and further away from human affairs and events and living a hermetic life. In that end, that is the natural order of tao. To indicate this, let's pull up that verse in question: Point one is extremely important, at least to me for a few reasons. Ledi Sayadaw, another very enlightened immortal, indicated in his writing that there lies two forms of truth (knowledge): relative truth [sammuti sacca] (or acquired truth through education) and paramattha sacca [absolute truth]. In most situations of understanding human life, it is relative truth that is enough for much of our lives, especially in bearing witness of the material world. And yet, there is the absolute and permanent truth. If I were to make any argument at this point, it is this. The permanent truth is the natural order of reality and the universe, and that is something very few of us truly understands and is governed by God. In the sense of point one, we do learn a lot. We don't have a choice and that's been established since antiquity in both senses of eastern and western anthropology. However, in this sense, the knowledge we acquire through education is dropped when you begin to walk the paths of way (whether it be dao in nature or buddhist in nature). I am a learned guy and I have learned a lot in the short amount of time I've lived (med school transition to clinical psychology, and of course philosophy and computer programming as well). I am not expert in any means, but I do know that as I began to meditate, the knowledge acquired from my experiences began to synthesize with the ways of the past. And actions that I initially performed (even something as simple as lying) I didn't perform much anymore. Even I was very negative on the medical health care system. But I didn't complain or revile it. I began to change it through my research and learn it. In this, I will never agree that the post industrialized society is completely negative, but it performs a necessary need for people who are and who are not on the path of way. Ultimately, to any of the immortals of past and present, the road one is being led to isn't one of the people, it is one of hermeticism. In this, the natural order of such things don't care about the planet, nor is it emphasized on the impacts global destruction has on the planet. There is only one thing that is cared about honestly. Meditation and cultivation. That's it. So the argument that this is against Lao Tzu's way of enlightenment would be considered polluting the Tao and placing your own agenda where it doesn't belong. Which is fine, because it is what we do. But it is certainly not Tao. Point 2 further clarifies the path that a person takes toward hermeticism and observation. As one meditates, or even truly relaxes, you begin to sense the energy of nature. Specifically, how days will unfold, expectations of it, and how to remain balanced in spite of living a life with other people. Initially, you will be receptive of the energy of nature and yield, but you tend to relax and be with it. This principle in and of itself forms a large basis of tai chi chuan as a martial art to yield forces of attack and minimizes expenditure of energy. This is also applicable to our lives. Granted things happen and it sucks. The more we try to meddle and control that action to stop it, the more and more chaos it causes because it is against the natural way. Consider this. Ever see a mud puddle? It is heterogeneously mixture of water and of course dirt (we hope it's dirt of course). Now try to rid that puddle of dirt without removing the water. One could try to stir the puddle mixing it and making it worse. Or, you can actually let the puddle be and observe the events. The puddle clears itself. That is life! No secret and hidden messages there. You don't meddle, rather you shouldn't meddle. But that goes against the natural way of humans. We want to move and we love to meddle to understand things. Which that too is fine. Actually, it is highly recommended by other immortals (Ledi Sayadaw indicates this in the first ten pages of his book actually). What isn't okay is meddling and not following the way. And that way is meditation. In time, the person starts to observe and meddle less. Knowledge wanes because the mind transitions to one truth - the absolute truth. Or, to sit and live in balanced and in total relaxation. Not to yield energy, but to be with it. That also includes the changes to nature =) Point three is also explained above. That's about it. If anything, there is de-emphasis on what is occurring, what is happening outside and more reverence on what is occurring within. And that is the transformation. Frankly, to a taoist, no one cares about material reality because it isn't real. There is a striving to go beyond the material and enter true bliss. Sadly I don't think we will agree sascha because you have your agenda, which again is fine. But I do enjoy hearing your thoughts on things ebcause they remind me of my own at one point in my life. I am hopeful that at one point you begin the path as well and realize both the good and bad of things. That in spite of this occurring, it is also very good and has helped people. Taichi, it doesn't necessarily mean do nothing per se. It means to retreat and observe while you sit. And even then you can be an active participant in life. As long as you realize the goal is to surpass this world. This life, and to do so you sit.
  6. that's a tautology and not a necessarily good one. If we were to observe natural order, a lot of things are far more cruel. For instance, multiple partners, lots of death and violence, and of course no climate control. If you suggest that even with the modern comforts that have decreased death, emphasized one partner, and lack of climate, be my guest. But that's not my ideal. 1. Pollution at least can eliminate reality *points to acid rain and its impact on environment and perception of reality, and life* 2. ??? Perversion? I don't get it... 3. So, then, what is the considered natural order to you? Cause if it's above, I think we may have a disagreement 4. Consider this for a moment. If everything is God, and God is good, even this destruction of nature is a part of God and a part of God's plan for aiding karma. You know, just saying... But by saying that neglects the impact, experience, diet, genetics and so on has on what is considered intelligent. I don't think I agree, you know especially considering there is no reality... I think I finally see what you mean. But I wouldn't consider that nature. I would consider that light of God. And again, it may not be from nature where losing that voice stems as much as it stems from what is considered good and bad experiences. And of course how that affects the mind, and as a result affects our behavior in a variety of different settings. As much as you say it isn't our brain, it is. The break is indicated through the physiology of the brain in a lot of different ways. It's actually quite alarming Actually it is. Considering we are coming from different contexts. As much as (I can assume) you revile this concept, if such a warp was not meant to happen it never would happen. Never. So in that, the warping of nature is actually quite natural and occurs in nature more often than you think. That in itself affects perception of material reality. And even if you hate it, it is also good. Because it is God and deeply a part of our karma if/when we experience that occurring. So when a beaver does this to create a damn, a bird to create a nest, that is...in accord with nature? I mean realistically I hope you realize this happens a lot more than you think even on a microscopic level in so many ways it isn't even funny. And yet, I do understand your rationale. You are referring to the extremes that impact nature. But to negate that such an aspect takes us away from nature by negatively affecting our reality is something I can't necessarily agree with. That also goes in vein with the argument that medicine is bad and so on. But the cyclic irony is that even the alternative medicine has disastrous affects on a person especially considering not every person is the same. They both can be good and bad. And I think that is one good point about all things
  7. but then this leads to a question what does it mean to live in nature...there is diversity to reality. Even d bags live in accord with nature. If there is this aspect of living the natural way, it is being open to all. Even the d bags... It also means to be loving. But it doesn't mean you have to like the person if they give you an experience. You just wish them well. I think with humans, we have this unique thing for us. We have this ability to manipulate our surrounding and still live in concord with nature. It's difficult what is nature to many. To a fervent practitioner of the religions that surpass reincarnation, living in nature is two things. Being, and surpassing the human experience by escaping reincarnation. But it is in that where the method to achieve that is diverse. Some will say to live without being with humans, not eating bad things, drinking, and having sex. But we know that isn't true. Because each have not only escaped reincarnation but gained the light body and left this dimension of reality The goal is this. Life is diverse, as well as the definition of living in concord with nature. Because even underlying nature is our own karma, which influences our lives drastically. Again, that's variable. Even the most devout Christian practices Dao. Born agains...not so much. The ironic thing about religion is that if one practices religion with the intent of being open and have a good heart, that's dao! That's buddhist, that's (insert belief here) because at its heart, that's religion. Recall, Jesus only said to be well to your fellow man. Don't pray to me, live better. That is a tie in most religious beliefs. Save from Islam, and well, there are a few reasons for that one... Not disagreeing, but they were d bags. And I think that has been par the course for centuries. Even if it is their destiny to do whatever, the next wave of teachers and masters' emphasize a different doctrine. One that emphasizes creating better humans. Which is a HUGE DEAL these days I think the impetus of wanting to live a better way varies from person to person. In general, the story is the same. Living a certain way, believing a few things, and getting tired of it or not seeing any progress. That impetus is the rush of energy. That energy of change. And that never goes away. In spite of many people being immortal, or escaping reincarnation, that realization is tied into your karma and destiny. It only goes when God takes it away. Otherwise, it keeps going for as long as it is necessary. Plain and simple. So as much as you try to find logic to derive a conclusion, this defies all logic here. It's destiny
  8. uhm...it's a lot more to it than that but I suppose it depends on the path you're on. Recall that way isn't exclusive to Dao, it is just paths of the thunder path are more practiced prominently in the world but its not the only path that suggests such a system That said...the ideology of yang being filled without meditation (or with) is one that is the initial process of the nei gong. But it is complex, well at least in discussion. In practice it is very easy In saying that even high level masters who have literally moved mountains and stopped thunderstorms aren't still ... enlightened. At least according to Wang Liping. In this respect, the notion of enlightenment, the process, and dao is quite the quandary because there is a lot more to it than filling yang, cultivating yin, detaching dan tian, merging yin and yang, bringing yin and yang and finally surpassing the reincarnation cycle. In fact, I suppose that's why dao is so diverse in paths of escaping reincarnation with the dao lao tse practiced being the most mysterious of them all. I mean you can be dao and be a d bag. I've seen it, others have seen it. and have they escaped reincarnation? Yes. Are they still d bags? Absolutely. I am even starting to realize that many people don't want to escape reincarnation, but want to live a better way in cultivating the mind and finding this aspect of peace. Without the fairies, unicorns, angels and overzealous visualization leading to mental attachment amongst other things. But of course, my experience is this. Keep with the system, see very little progress. At least even if you open and be aware that everything is God, and God is good, your life changes immensely. No trying to control elements of your life because they still come. No read addiction trying to know every morsel of the future because it is not necessary. You already have that faith in yourself and God. And ultimately, no faux happiness or positivity. It is natural, it comes from within and people notice! That is the thing I have seen. And frankly seeing the psychic side (meandering on new age philosophy), it sucks. And causes lots of issues. Far more than the reward. Because what is to say that the mind is being cleansed, and the karmic lines are being burned? Again, this endless waltz is beyond ... pedantic
  9. as I said before it's not the point of the topic. I never indicated anyone could or would disagree. In fact, I prefer it. But the main thing... you know It's not a point of being light. But if it's something I've commented on initially, there's absolutely no reason for me to say something I've already said. It's nothing to lighten up of actually. Granted one sentence can be misconstrued because it doesn't include a light or positive phrase. But there was no negativity behind it. Actually if anything it was absence of any intent but a simple reminder. So, with respect, let's stay on topic regarding methods to bring cultivation of mind without the insipid side effects and making you a better person that has been witnessed in several different western and eastern religions throughout time...
  10. Like i said if you want to talk about that PM me...that's not the topic
  11. I'll tell ya what I don't want this topic to tangent into some argument re: opinions concerning medicine and the history of religion (and etymology of words used by religion). If you want to discuss that, PM me. That's not the point of the discussion. More than enough time has been taken into that and not at the heart of the discussion. A system, no matter what label, can do some harm to the psyche of the individual and not so much good. You can visualize xyz, wave every imaginary pink light or something around you, meditate on some chakra point, and that doesn't make you a better person. Nor is it liberating for the mind or the heart. The point is, there is better. There are nobler ways for us to become better people, to transform the mind, see the light, and see the referential focus of being "psychic" as nothing more than a mere trap of an effect of the ultimate goal and not the goal in and of itself. That is the point. Feel free to disagree with that because that is the topic
  12. erh... One more And to add to that third quote, pagan isn't psychic especially in the modern context because again historically Pagan beliefs carry a pretty negative connotation especially in mainstream appeal in spite of the increase in pagan beliefs that occurred post vietnam and even before the turn of the millennium. In that, when I said new age == pagan, it is especially considering: Recall, I am using pagan in the sense that it drastically skews itself from orthodox western religion. New Age also is seen in that sense in the west to include beliefs that are not apart of western monotheistic beliefs. Actually take a look at the history of both words, it's quite fascinating So can we finally put that matter to bed? That's what she said...or...he said... Who said they were? Actually I'm pretty sure I indicated: And that answers that May wanna dig up on your anthropology. I'd start with Christianity, work your way up to the Romani, and then probably settle with Indian history. Too much focus on things that are really...inconsequential.. Fair enough. That's your opinion on things. Which is fine. We all have our opinions on things and definitely fair to disagree. That's what makes humans diverse. And while we disagree that's cool =) I'll probably be running out of quotes - curse you IPB Actually, read the recent book "Anatomy of an Epidemic" to get an idea of the volume of studies showing that most "psychiatric" "medications" are almost certainly causing the very "diseases" they are prescribed for. This is because of both outright brain damage from some of these drugs ("chemical lobotomy") and also due to the homeostasis functions of the body, which will compensate in an opposite direction from a medication. In part...there's a lot more to it. I mean I have the book as well. But take a pharm course to understand the impacts of the medication. I mean I don't disagree, I mean heck I was a month away from med school, but I also wouldn't generalize it so easily. It's far more complex than that in spite of it leading to altering of the biochemistry and structure of the brain. But again, the brain is extremely neuroplastic. Under proper conditions, it can heal itself One simple example is how taking stimulants makes people much more sleepy and dull-minded when they stop them. Their system has naturally compensated for the expansion of the capillaries in their brain (which is the main effect of the drug) by working to narrow these capillaries in response. The stimulants don't "cure" sleepiness or dull-mindedness at all. Rather, they cause the body to amplify these conditions. Again, its a bit too simple and people have different physiologies. Generally, it isn't a one size fit all approach Take a look at someone who is trying to get off anti-psychotics. They become much more psychotic. Doctors will say that this is because the person needs medication, but really, the medication has simply provoked the opposite response in the body as in the above example of stimulants. Again, really too simple here. People are diverse and it depends on a holistic image. Not everyone responds the same to medicine. But I do agree that the mind is something awkward and beautiful There are many examples of drugs leading "to a psychotic breakdown in modern times". Think of the debased mental functioning, including "breakdowns" of numerous drug addicts and alcoholics generally. I wouldn't say it is the drug...attachment to the drug...oh big time I agree Sascha, and I know I am not the only one here who believes that psychic ability is an inherent part of being ... (I was going to say "human", but I suspect that animals have this same ability) of being a sentient creature. I think we all agree with that, but in terms of mental cultivation, it is bare minimum. If actually that
  13. erh... One more And to add to that third quote, pagan isn't psychic especially in the modern context because again historically Pagan beliefs carry a pretty negative connotation especially in mainstream appeal in spite of the increase in pagan beliefs that occurred post vietnam and even before the turn of the millennium. In that, when I said new age == pagan, it is especially considering: Recall, I am using pagan in the sense that it drastically skews itself from orthodox western religion. New Age also is seen in that sense in the west to include beliefs that are not apart of western monotheistic beliefs. Actually take a look at the history of both words, it's quite fascinating So can we finally put that matter to bed? That's what she said...or...he said... Who said they were? Actually I'm pretty sure I indicated: And that answers that May wanna dig up on your anthropology. I'd start with Christianity, work your way up to the Romani, and then probably settle with Indian history. Too much focus on things that are really...inconsequential.. Fair enough. That's your opinion on things. Which is fine. We all have our opinions on things and definitely fair to disagree. That's what makes humans diverse. And while we disagree that's cool =) I'll probably be running out of quotes - curse you IPB Actually, read the recent book "Anatomy of an Epidemic" to get an idea of the volume of studies showing that most "psychiatric" "medications" are almost certainly causing the very "diseases" they are prescribed for. This is because of both outright brain damage from some of these drugs ("chemical lobotomy") and also due to the homeostasis functions of the body, which will compensate in an opposite direction from a medication. In part...there's a lot more to it. I mean I have the book as well. But take a pharm course to understand the impacts of the medication. I mean I don't disagree, I mean heck I was a month away from med school, but I also wouldn't generalize it so easily. It's far more complex than that in spite of it leading to altering of the biochemistry and structure of the brain. But again, the brain is extremely neuroplastic. Under proper conditions, it can heal itself One simple example is how taking stimulants makes people much more sleepy and dull-minded when they stop them. Their system has naturally compensated for the expansion of the capillaries in their brain (which is the main effect of the drug) by working to narrow these capillaries in response. The stimulants don't "cure" sleepiness or dull-mindedness at all. Rather, they cause the body to amplify these conditions. Again, its a bit too simple and people have different physiologies. Generally, it isn't a one size fit all approach Take a look at someone who is trying to get off anti-psychotics. They become much more psychotic. Doctors will say that this is because the person needs medication, but really, the medication has simply provoked the opposite response in the body as in the above example of stimulants. Again, really too simple here. People are diverse and it depends on a holistic image. Not everyone responds the same to medicine. But I do agree that the mind is something awkward and beautiful There are many examples of drugs leading "to a psychotic breakdown in modern times". Think of the debased mental functioning, including "breakdowns" of numerous drug addicts and alcoholics generally. I wouldn't say it is the drug...attachment to the drug...oh big time I agree Sascha, and I know I am not the only one here who believes that psychic ability is an inherent part of being ... (I was going to say "human", but I suspect that animals have this same ability) of being a sentient creature. I think we all agree with that, but in terms of mental cultivation, it is bare minimum. If actually that
  14. I'll bold somethings...because I sort of covered this And to clarify on the historical use of the word pagan, as we are aware, it is a term used after the death of Christ in Rome to signify the various beliefs systems the people had at the time while creating a sense of this is not something that should be practiced in Rome. As Rome became somewhat a pillar of the evolution of Western Christianity (save from well, Africa). Since the practices and beliefs were viewed negatively, Pagan took a connotation similar to that of maleficios, or evil. In this, the negative connotation of Paganism arose because at a point other faiths were practiced (polytheistic of course). But as the word evolved, there have been two underlying themes through the use of Pagan 1. It (Pagans) are polytheistic and evil 2. Pagans are not Christian In this, both themes used to describe other people who were not Christian were used throughout the ages. For instance, slave trade, any form of eastward expansion, and so on and so on. Even to this day, the same themes are used interchangeably. As the bolded portion indicates, New Age is also used in a similar light to describe practices that diverge from orthodox Western religion. The huge difference is that instead of having an evil connotation, the connotation is culturally acceptable in the English language (however, how others look at it is still viewed negatively due to several events; like the Nicean council for Christianity and verses found in the Koran and Torah). In terms of psychic, as I said before, it too is a New Age belief (in terms of cultivation of mind). Are psychics Pagan? Not necessarily. You can be Christian and still psychic especially in the way things were framed throughout the discussion. In terms of cultivation and comparing between traditional methods of cultivation, it is definitely New Age; certainly not something many agree with. Primarily because psychic in and of itself is not a belief, it is a referential siddhi that has been written for generations to describe future sight that is extant in even western religious belief systems. So to designate this Pagan =/= psychic Psychic == new age In your quote, you also neglected a few things: Of course admittedly I did misread the quote and segmented not realizing the construction of your logical argument. So that's a my bad here. But in general, I agree we are overmedicated. But I've not necessarily seen many drugs lead to a psychotic breakdown in modern times. Now if we're talking about methamphetamine use as a clinical aid in the 60s, oh I'd definitely agree... It isn't all dao completely. It is and it isn't. Buddhism is also dao; in that dao is used to refer to way and road toward way. So in that, everything is dao, because everything is way. Now whether that way is somewhere in particular is another story As far as the blending of both beliefs, I don't see that coming. The underlying philosophical views of reality are too fundamentally different for there to ever be a way to really prove too many concepts. Heaven forbid if someone finds a dan tian using medical equipment...
  15. No, I said what I meant. Fact of the matter is New Age in and of itself is a term used to describe alternative (different) belief systems that drastically skew away from commonly understood western orthodox religious belief systems of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity (including Protestant and Roman Catholic Christianity). In that, the current practices, by the operationalized definition, would be New Age, because the term is used to describe a different set of beliefs. If we want to get truly technical, New Age is a happier word to use than the traditional etymology of the word Pagan, which also notes almost the exact same thing in that there is no negative cultural connotation thereof. Not necessarily at all. When an individual or a culture adopts something that is supposed to hone and aid them in development, there should be some changes. As it has been written over thousands of years. There is no assumption. Been there, lived there, walked there. There was no bettering of mind, there was no being protected or a sense of love as stressed by the psychic world or literature (yes I used the term again, see above for why). That, unfortunately is not visualization, that'd be inner vision. And while the reference has somewhat a bone to pick about both, there are circumstances in which they can be beneficial. But for the beginning stages, it isn't necessary. Tosses shen out of whack, leads to tai yang, burns essence, so on and so on and so on. If you'd rather a buddhist interpretation of that, same thing. Tosses prana out of whack leading to excess prana, which aggressively burns the root chakra, and so on and so on (if we love an Indian flavor to this). Of course, there are both good and bad ways to do it. Point is, we've been doing the bad way and it hasn't really helped above people overly visualizing phenomenon not leading to progress but detriment. But feel free to disagree Gotta say, while my clinical experiences are limited to a few years, you're making a grand accusation. Now if that response is maybe paired with a similar action that caused some trauma previously, that wouldn't be a psychotic episode. That's PTSD. And while the connection between PTSD and psychosis/mood disorders are prevalent in several forms of literature, the entire premise of action => psychosis is short sighted. I almost have to ask, what do you mean here? You mind if you pull up a source for that? I know a few of my teachers have some similar arguments, but stress that the reason is due to the mind not entering a state of relaxation and is "on" 24/7. Watching TV, for instance, isn't relaxing. You're just trading one activity for another. Nevertheless, I'd like to see a reference (or several) to what you describe. Really want to read about that toilet one and the doormat one. Really want to read that That's a small part of it. Basically, the mind is a beautiful gem, and is considered one of nine sacred treasures in terms of spiritual progression. In many systems (Buddhist, Yang Shen Dao, and so on), it is all mind. Therefore, we should be extremely careful with any practice that cultivates the mind, just as it cultivates the body. The history in and of itself speaks of several practitioners going down wrong paths especially in mental cultivation and creating constructs that have very little (nothing) to do with conscious development. The unique aspect here about both Buddhist and Daoist schools is that each system has some sort of physical requirement that notes whether a person is advancing or not. My question is this: Has anyone even begun to hit a tiny fragment of those barriers or has there only been coddling of the ego leading to false enlightenment where a person uses the I am in this category therefore I am special (the Bashars, the secret people, and the like). That's only a fragment of what really happens when you really start to develop the conscious mind. - switching to Italics because apparently not too much quotes...oh IPB...you used to be so cool I never thought of alchemy as a metaphor for introspection and internal transformation. That really sticks with me. It's interesting because when you transform your inner lead into gold, your outer "world" will also transform in time from rags to riches. I don't mean monetarily, although incidentally that has come my way too. The jin dan has always been used in eastern culture to note introspection and internal transformation. At higher levels, one of my teachers did show me lead he turned to gold to note that he had progressed in his alchemical training to that point. But that wasn't the purpose of the training. Similar to yogis getting attracted to the Siddhis, that's not the intent of the meditation or the training. The training has really one purpose. Prepare the body for the final alchemy and escape reincarnation. Everything else is a secondary roadmap that notes progress... At its earliest stages, mental cultivation leads to the white light where (depending on the method) the practitioner circulates the white light, the light is seen through the eyes, and further development occurs physically. But of course that's just ONE method. Ok, Noir, are you saying that we need to be careful what we take from the New Age philosophy as Sascha has clarified, as it won't make you less depressed and psychics don't have any special skills? I think this answers the questions It's more than just visualization. It's the entire system. And again, I really refrain from using New Age. See above It's what I tried to say a few months back. A person with mental health issues who believes they're possessed or if they've in fact got schizophrenia or any other illness won't become well from visualisations, reading a book or being "cleans One of my largest topics for my dissertation is the conceptualization of schizophrenia. And schizophrenia has a lot of different aspects. Explaining things from one interpretation, there are a lot of things that leads to a break in consciousness. PTSD link, dissociation with the experience leading to the mind rebelling, sometimes too much thought or neurosis in somethings, and even more insane aspects. As I think about clients who I've seen schizophrenic, there is a similar thread I experience this -> I search for this -> I learn this psychic stuffs -> I think I am better when in fact I am getting worse The main point here is that, mental cultivation, while grand, needs to be taken in a different direction. Because frankly, the system that deals with it (psychic) is horrible. In a literal sense, the "alchemists" worked for the King. The King had a lot of land. A common element in the land was lead, and an uncommon element was gold. The alchemist's job was to take lead and make gold out of it for the King. They gave the lead to the people in water pipes and drinking vessels, who thus became stupified and gave the King all their gold Only in the west, who somehow screwed the concept entirely. The same did not occur in other parts of the world. Jin dan (internal alchemy) was typically taught in several cultures to the noblemen so they have the resources to not reincarnate. In addition, they were taught to future heads of the lineage. The main thing is the role karma had in this. But that's another story. Point is, the rule only applies to European belief. Not where alchemy really came from... Hope that helped because I'm off to do some well needed training and meditations Be well
×