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Guest Angel C

Spiritual Growth

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There is something I do not understand, and it troubles me greatly.

Angel C is right, Armadodecadron,

 

When others challenge or disagree with, or offer another perspective it can be an opportunity to fine tune our own ideas. :angel:

 

Like Angel, I too, am formulating a belief and that means there are elements that still need to be shaped

 

You are right -- it does seem to make no sense that imperfection can suddenly spring from what is perfection.

 

It is a question that I grapple with… how can anything that comes from god be imperfect?

 

I don’t know the answer to that yet, so right now I am accepting that I cannot explain a major part of my belief system. It has been a big day and tomorrow is an even bigger one so I will get back to you both when I have meditated on this some more.

 

Angel C: So why experience life then? I don't know. I'm not sure we are meant to know. If we are perfect before we are born, why experience it at all? Maybe there is no purpose to it - that is hard for our minds to conceive. Maybe it is just a naturally occurring cycle.

 

Maybe it is. Maybe it is as random as the movement of the smallest particles known so far! :)

 

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If a perfect spirit changed perfectly, it would remain perfect. ;)
Well put.

 

On one hand, you say, we came from god, and that god is within us, and in us is perfection
I had a thought about this. What if it is the other way around? We say that god and perfection is within us, but what if it is us that is within god, and us that is within perfection. That you and I are very close-minded and focused beings just focused on a particular piece of the puzzle. But the entire puzzle is god and the entire puzzle is perfection. When we "grow" through life and spiritually, our view broadens, and our minds open up. Being a very focused view, we cannot help but feel incomplete, or imperfect, but the Jesuses and Bhuddas have broadened their views, and so they can see much greater things, and they know that it is all alright.

Hasn't there been many times when you thought there was a problem but then you learned something, your perspective got broader, and then you realized it was not as big of a deal as you thought? Broad perspectives seem to be loving and nonjudgmental while closed perspectives you usually don't want to be around.

Just an idea to play with. :)

 

You cannot seek what you already have.
This is the great irony because in order to manifest a something, you have to say that you already have it, and release thoughts that say that you do not. I would imagine you would have to do the same thing with "perfection," and I would bet that once perfection is reached the being would go "Oh, I was so silly, I was perfect this entire time!"

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Guest Angel C
This is the great irony because in order to manifest a something, you have to say that you already have it, and release thoughts that say that you do not. I would imagine you would have to do the same thing with "perfection," and I would bet that once perfection is reached the being would go "Oh, I was so silly, I was perfect this entire time!"

 

 

That makes so much sense to me Kai. I typed this to a friend earlier:

 

You know I feel so much better realizing that my spirit does not have to grow! I have released the pressure and as a result, paradoxically, feel huge growth.

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I had a thought about this. What if it is the other way around? We say that god and perfection is within us, but what if it is us that is within god, and us that is within perfection.

 

 

The way I see it is that god is within us AND we are within god...

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The way I see it is that god is within us AND we are within god...
I agree! Aren't paradoxes wonderful! :)

 

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Guest Angel C

I had the same thought when I read Kai's post! Just because that is hard for us to understand, doesnt mean it isnt possible.

 

"I am within god, and god is within me" - I find that statement very powerful.

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Guest Angel C
This is the great irony because in order to manifest a something, you have to say that you already have it, and release thoughts that say that you do not. I would imagine you would have to do the same thing with "perfection," and I would bet that once perfection is reached the being would go "Oh, I was so silly, I was perfect this entire time!"

 

 

I wanted to comment on this, because you missed one thing out. You have to "mean" it too.

 

I said "I am within god, and god is within me" and I meant it and I feel so different.

 

Obviously this wasnt because of this thread, or any one book I've read, or any one particular experience, but an accumulation of a whole load of things that have been going on for a while.

 

I feel very different. I just wanted to share :)

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Great conversation here and great brightspots flashing out in every post. Excellent.

 

I have a friend who when asked, "Who are you?" she replies with, "Don't you know. I'm god playing Suzy. And you are god playing you."

 

Most people can get that concept... even if it rubs their beliefs a little the wrong way, lol.

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There is something I do not understand, and it troubles me greatly. I apologize if this seems like an unfounded attack on the dominant belief system here, but I assure you my motivations are to come to understand a dire inconsistency and a perhaps inch closer to a great mystery.

 

On one hand, you say, we came from god, and that god is within us, and in us is perfection. Layered around it is humanity, various vessels and structures by which we are to experience life. If you were to strip away the humanity, and all of those structures, then this perfection would be all that is left. This is not to be contested - it is a logical requirement if we are to assume that we are perfect beings and with an absolute god within us.

 

And then you say, we are perfect beings having a human experience. There is nothing wrong with this statement. It fits nicely with the idea that we, spiritually, cannot grow, nor diminish, as we are spiritually absolute. But this renders the goal of total unity redundant. You left total unity and light the moment you took on the mantle of a singular entity, to experience the human condition. Under that belief system, all of us did such a thing. We left a perfect state as perfect selves unified in the perfect god. To do what? Experience pain, darkness, envy, rage, jealousy, condemnation and fear?

 

What is the point of leaving perfection just to make it your goal the moment you leave? If it is to be one with god that you seek, you seek death. Why are you alive now? To guide others to the same destination, as the Bodhisattva - like Christ, like Buddha? Under the assumption that we are all spiritually perfect, this noble task is redundant. Everyone was born, and everyone will die, and everyone will inevitably return from whence they came.

 

So, do you seek perfection? You cannot seek what you already have. You must be imperfect to seek it. Or are you perfect and seeking imperfection by way of a human experience?

 

Which is it? You cannot have both. That is a fatal incongruity.

 

 

Hi Arma,

 

Your post makes me think of the " Big Bang Theory"... a beautifully thought-out theory that has been pondered over for years and has captured our imagination... and in the process, many of the mysteries of our existence seems more clear. However, there is a big part of the Big Bang Theory that is missing. What happened in the very beginning that caused the big bang? What was before that? Was the entire universe created from nothing, a nothing that then exploded and developed from there, into something? How would that be possible? I suppose for me, the mystery of our existence, our purpose is similar in that we might not know, because we have not yet been able to grasp a concept that is there, but simply not yet understood.

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I know this is an old thread, but it caught my attention and I wanted to throw in my "two cents" (to the best of my ability with my chatterbox daughter with me).

 

There's too many wonderful ideas and questions in here to quote, so I'm not responding to any one thing in particular -- just throwing in my beliefs. :)

 

I believe that the soul (or spirit, or higher self... it's all the same to me) is the part of is that is eternal. That's a pretty common belief, I think. I also believe that the soul is the part of us that is also part of God. And that before we were born here, our soul existed elsewhere and made a decision to come here and live the life we have.

 

I believe the purpose of our life here is not to achieve perfection at all because, as Arm. pointed out, we are already perfect. I believe instead that our purpose here is essentially three things...

~ to *remember* and embrace our own soul's perfection as best we can within our human bodies and minds;

~ to experience all that life offers us, because only in experiencing *everything* -- "good" and "bad" -- can we remember our perfection (for example... someone cuts me off on the freeway ("bad"); I can choose then and there to respond with anger ("bad") or love ("good"); my feelings after my response will tell me if I chose "perfectly" or not);

~ and last, to assist all the other souls in our personal world (i.e., those we touch) in remembering their own perfection and experiencing their own life.

 

What I call "spiritual growth" is simply the process of learning to do -- and then practicing -- what I described above.

 

I know there was more I wanted to say, because I was thinking about how ego gets in the way. But for the life of me, I can't remember it right now. So, I hope I've made sense so far. I've written this through constant singing and chatter, and with four interruptions for little-kid-crises. If I didn't make sense, that's probably why! :)

 

~ Zan

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Moonwillow - Perhaps there was no act of creation, and that event was a transition of the matter and energy from a state unknown to science to the state we know today. The big bang is a sound theory, given the structure of our universe. But it isn't complete. There is also the question of background radiation that does not behave as if it radiated from that central point or any of the matter that came spewing out of it. There is a great deal left unexplained, and will remain that way until we can sample the nature of the cosmos deep in the empty void, far from all life and all light.

 

Gypsy - what you have described is training the human body to act in tandem with the soul, so you can in essence be here in the physical world as you are there, in the spiritual world. That is a noble pursuit, and it is the foundation of spirituality.

 

I hope you're not comfortable with yourself for that realization, though. It isn't an answer. It is the question. What is the point of limiting your own perspective of reality as it truly is, and yourself as you truly are, just to spend a lifetime trying to find what you intentionally lost? Why would you leave absolute perfection, when your goal here is to dedicate yourself to finding it again? That is like burying your own treasure, forgetting where it is, and stumbling around your yard with a shovel for the next few weeks. What is the point?

 

I am beginning to think this entire mindset is an attempt to justify the human experience in the face of a faceless unknown, a fearsome endlessness rich with possibilities that are utterly beyond us as humans. Does it make the idea of the otherworld more comfortable for you when you array your personal view of the cosmos to revolve around earth? Maybe being human isn't that great. Maybe their are modes of existence more satisfying and more meaningful. How would you know? What standard of comparison do you have? The more I learn, the more visions of the other side I have, the more of it I can taste and hold fleetingly in a limited form of memory that lasts as long as I am locked in a mindlessness between waking, dreaming and meditative focus, the more unsatisfactory, base and trite my life seems here. There is a stunning "all" with endless layers, rich in secrets, with the history of worlds written into them, knowledge that even our souls might gain that our minds cannot even know, and we spend our time here, worrying about who will love us and how we will pay our bills. I would take my own life if I did not believe it was my duty to endeavor as many have before me to bring that sense of wonder here.

 

The human experience and perfection are mutually exclusive concepts. It is clear we adopt imperfection of a sort. It is not clear why.

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Guest Angel C
It is clear we adopt imperfection of a sort. It is not clear why.

 

What are your suggestions for the reasons we live a human life?

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... I hope you're not comfortable with yourself for that realization, though. It isn't an answer. It is the question. What is the point of limiting your own perspective of reality as it truly is, and yourself as you truly are, just to spend a lifetime trying to find what you intentionally lost? Why would you leave absolute perfection, when your goal here is to dedicate yourself to finding it again? That is like burying your own treasure, forgetting where it is, and stumbling around your yard with a shovel for the next few weeks. What is the point?

 

I am beginning to think this entire mindset is an attempt to justify the human experience in the face of a faceless unknown, a fearsome endlessness rich with possibilities that are utterly beyond us as humans. Does it make the idea of the otherworld more comfortable for you when you array your personal view of the cosmos to revolve around earth? Maybe being human isn't that great. Maybe their are modes of existence more satisfying and more meaningful. How would you know? What standard of comparison do you have? The more I learn, the more visions of the other side I have, the more of it I can taste and hold fleetingly in a limited form of memory that lasts as long as I am locked in a mindlessness between waking, dreaming and meditative focus, the more unsatisfactory, base and trite my life seems here. There is a stunning "all" with endless layers, rich in secrets, with the history of worlds written into them, knowledge that even our souls might gain that our minds cannot even know, and we spend our time here, worrying about who will love us and how we will pay our bills. I would take my own life if I did not believe it was my duty to endeavor as many have before me to bring that sense of wonder here.

 

The human experience and perfection are mutually exclusive concepts. It is clear we adopt imperfection of a sort. It is not clear why.

 

Well, yeah, I'm comfortable with myself... but not in the sense that I'm done seeking, I've settled. More in that I'm not uncomfortable with my beliefs.

 

I think you answered your own question in the part I set to bold, though. The best possible reason I've ever heard as to why we would willingly leave perfection for this, of all things, is exactly so that we can create a frame of reference.

 

Say that you are right, and you probably are, that there is so much more out there than we suspect and it is stunning. Yet, here we sit in this "base and trite" world. Here's the answer, I believe -- if this world were not to base and trite... if in fact, we lived in perfection.... would those other worlds be so stunning? No.

 

The sun is brighter after a rainstorm. Our hearts are lighter after being relieved of the weight of grief. We can experience miraculous healing only when we are sick.

 

So, perhaps, it is with the universe... maybe we can only experience the stunningly beautiful as exactly that AFTER we have seen ugliness. There is no here without a there. If we didn't choose imperfection, we would never stand a chance of experiencing perfection at any point. We might know we were perfect, but we couldn't '*experience* it, because experience is dynamic, requiring both the here and there -- a point of reference.

 

This is why I say take the bad with the good... don't just take it -- embrace it!

 

It's an easy thing to forget in our world, our culture, where nearly everything is bent toward creating perfection. The truth is, I believe, that perfection is already here. We just don't get it because we're too busy trying to fix it. And, since even in perfection this world is a difficult place for you to be, I would qualify my use of the word... I don't mean "perfect" as in "ideal"... I mean perfect as in flawless, complete, whole. I believe the universe is just that, because I believe that everything happens for a reason and at all times everything is exactly as it should be -- even when it doesn't seem so to us.

 

Who are we to pass judgment on the filament of thread that is our life within the entire tapestry that is the infinite universe? I don't like my thread -- so what? It's not even noticeable in the tapestry. But it's necessary. Without it, the tapestry wouldn't be what it is.... which is something we can't see yet. Not even you, who has seen more than anyone I know, from what you said above.

 

Anyway, I've started to lose track of what I wanted to say again. Which probably means I'm supposed to be done. :P

 

No, I'm not. I went back and read your post again. All those things you have seen.... I haven't seen them, but within the realm of my experience, all those things are here with us right now. I experience more wonder on a daily basis than anyone I know personally, except probably my dad, who taught me to do so. I DO have to stop and make myself look for it, because it is soooo easy to get caught up in the worry and the drama of this world. But, when I do make myself stop and look, this world is a wonderful and exciting place and I love living.

 

Now, I don't think at all that the cosmos revolves around Earth or humanity. In fact, my son and I were just discussing this morning how ridiculous the notion is. But, it's where I am at the moment. And, I have a choice. I can either spend this life wishing I were somewhere better, or I can look for the best of this life and this world and wring as much joy from it as I can. Even if I didn't know that my choice will affect everyone I touch.... who wouldn't choose joy?? (Besides everyone who doesn't realize it's a choice, obviously. :P)

 

Okay, now I'm done. You seem mildly despondent tonight, or I'm misreading things. Either way, I hope I haven't made light of your troubles. I don't mean to. You asked, I answered. But I've "gotten in trouble" so many times when I try and explain my point of view. Apparently, it's offensive to a number of people. If you're one of them, accept my apologies. I don't mean to offend anyone, just explaining my own view on life. :)

 

~ Zan

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Guest Angel C

 

 

 

Wow GypsyMama we share so many views :) I was going to respond saying some pretty similar things last night, but instead decided to ask Amardo a question instead, because I seem to be missing a point in what he is saying.

 

but not in the sense that I'm done seeking

 

Excellent point. In my case I would say I'm content with my recent realization that my soul, like everyone elses is already perfect, but I'm still growing as a person and still want to grow as a person. You see I think that is what happens once this realization is made. I dont think anyone could ever go backwards from that point after making that realization, even with the knowledge that we dont have to grow, that we are perfect as we are, we still grow.

 

 

 

 

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I think you answered your own question in the part I set to bold, though. The best possible reason I've ever heard as to why we would willingly leave perfection for this, of all things, is exactly so that we can create a frame of reference.

A frame of reference? I think I understand now, Gypsy. Thank you. That post really helped me understand something foreign to me. The entire line of reasoning I use to approach this subject seems damning and inevitable to me but is really a matter of perspective. In these posts, I have been trying to stir up a discontent native to me that simply isn't in other people. That is responsible for much of my obvious frustration when having this kind of conversation - I'm always looking for something that isn't there, that discomfort I referenced.

 

Perhaps, given a frame of reference, you would find life unsatisfactory and constraining. Or perhaps you would continue to love it. I can think of no way to determine this through discussion alone.

 

What are your suggestions for the reasons we live a human life?

Angel C, unfortunately I have none you have not heard from me already. They all revolve around the idea of a changing, mutable soul. An absolute soul cannot have individual frames of reference because it is refers to all things absolutely. It cannot establish new frames of reference because it always possessed all of them. There is nothing for an absolute soul to gain by way of shedding its perfection because it had everything to begin with. There is no "gain" or "loss" for such a thing. So any ideas I have on this subject require the assumption of an imperfect soul that can "take" from the experience of a life in ways that are impossible for a perfect soul that already had everything and therefore nothing left to take.

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...a perfect soul that already had everything and therefore nothing left to take.

 

 

...but everything to GIVE. :)

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A frame of reference? I think I understand now, Gypsy. Thank you. That post really helped me understand something foreign to me....

 

Perhaps, given a frame of reference, you would find life unsatisfactory and constraining. Or perhaps you would continue to love it. I can think of no way to determine this through discussion alone....

 

You're welcome. :)

 

I absolutely believe that two people with the same frame of reference -- same experience -- can and will have a different view on life. I also believe that two people with a totally different frame of reference -- or experience -- can come to the same conclusions about life. And, though it's occurred to me that doesn't seem to matter to anyone, I don't believe any of them are inherently right or wrong. What's right for me may be totally wrong for you and vice versa.

 

Anyway, daughter's nagging me to play cards, so anything else I was going to say has flown my mind! I sort of wish I could make you feel better, Arm.... but I also have a feeling that for reasons I can't see, your feeling as you do is just right for now. Not something to be fixed.

 

~ Zan

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...but everything to GIVE. :)
You and I are on the same wavelength there! :wub:

 

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What is absolute cannot take nor be taken from - inversely, it cannot give nor be given to. To be timeless is to be unchanging.

 

Give? What? To whom? What can an absolute soul receive that it does not have already?

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What is absolute cannot take nor be taken from - inversely, it cannot give nor be given to. To be timeless is to be unchanging.

 

Give? What? To whom? What can an absolute soul receive that it does not have already?

 

Give knowledge, guidance, support and love to humanity. :)

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Give knowledge, guidance, support and love to humanity.

:)

 

Who are already perfect in every way, requiring nothing, and having everything to give. And by the necessity of that, should and indeed must be doing exactly what you are, being perfect souls like you.

 

How do you cope with the notion that your benevolence is in an extreme minority, and that all the world over are individuals with none of your own drive? Something separates you from them. That cannot be avoided. It -has- to be true, because if it were not, everyone would share your path, and would have the same courage, and we would live in a paradise of understanding and calm.

 

If not a difference in the content of their soul, what else does that leave to explain the difference between you and those with no ambition for spiritual understanding, who far outnumber you? Genetic predisposition? How they were raised? If all we are is a throw of the dice, there is no point in thinking or learning anything - everything we do is done for us, our identity is not our own, and that defeats the very notion of the higher self, and of spiritual study.

 

It can only be the soul that makes us what we are, Victoria. And it makes us what we are not. What does that mean when you use it to compare the strong and benevolent to the weak and cruel? Tell me how you explain the difference! I do not understand why you do not see as I do. It seems so inevitable a conclusion.

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