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Why can't you speak frequently with the recently passed over?

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Guest Angel C
I think a reason not to communicate with the deceased shortly after they died would be because people are still emotional over the situation which could interfere with the message, not the deceased.

 

I agree, but maybe that can work both ways.

 

What do you see them as?

 

I think the soul is with god and the spirit travels.

 

On earth we have access to our soul, through our spirit.

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I think the soul is with god and the spirit travels.

 

On earth we have access to our soul, through our spirit.

So on Earth are we developing our soul or our spirit?

 

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Guest Dot

I think the soul is the type of in-between of our human consciousness and that of our spirit. :)

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Guest Angel C
So on Earth are we developing our soul or our spirit?

 

 

Neither, I think our spirit is just experiencing.

 

This is the huge personal realization that I made a week or so ago - although I have seen it written before.

 

 

 

I believe it is the human mind that strives for perfection.

 

 

Edit: It is so hard to explain, but everything fits for me, but its hard to put into words.

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Neither, I think our spirit is just experiencing.

 

This is the huge personal realization that I made a week or so ago - although I have seen it written before.

 

 

 

I believe it is the human mind that strives for perfection.

 

 

Edit: It is so hard to explain, but everything fits for me, but its hard to put into words.

When I realization is hard to put into words, I think that you are on the right track.

 

I think the soul is the type of in-between of our human consciousness and that of our spirit.
I think Angel C was saying the same thing but uses the word "soul" for "spirit" and "spirit" for "soul" in her model. We use those words so interchangeably...

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Guest Angel C
When I realization is hard to put into words, I think that you are on the right track.

 

I think Angel C was saying the same thing but uses the word "soul" for "spirit" and "spirit" for "soul" in her model. We use those words so interchangeably...

 

 

Oh, I cant claim it as my model. It is my understanding of insight that has been passed on to me, mixed with some learning, experience and insight.

 

Victoria shared with me that perhaps they aren't the same thing. I wont try to quote her, because it was some time ago, but her words made so much sense to me and I felt at that there were 3 parts. After reading up on yoga recently I felt like I had the final peice of the jigsaw.

 

The Causal Body has 3 layers = Personal, Collective and Universal.

 

I am personally interpreting this to mean: the soul has 3 layers, the part of us which is unique, the part of us that is consciousness (?) and the part of us that is infinite.

 

I think the part of us that is Universal is with god and is infinite.

 

The part of us that is collective, is our higher self (soul group).

 

The part of us that is personal, is the part of us that experiences (it is also our authentic personality - the personality we were born with)

 

Journeys, or travels arnt quite the right words (which I used before), because these imply a split. Yet all of these parts, along with our physical body and our mind are within us all of the time, whilst we are on earth.

 

btw, they use the words spirit and soul interchangeably in the book too.

 

Anyway I'm going way off subject here. what was my point, we werent talking about being on earth

 

(this isnt in the book)

 

Oh yes, when we die, I think our personal spirit leaves our body and returns to the collective consciousness. From there it may return to the universal soul or perhaps be re-incarnated. Until it reaches the Universal Soul it can become many things, perhaps this is decided at the collective stage. Until it reaches the Universal soul it may be subject to things such as time, space and causality - as it has not reached the infinite yet.

 

"According to Shakara, the deepest aspect of your being is beyond time, space, and causality, yet gives rise to the manifest universe." The Seven Spiritual Laws of Yoga, Deepak Chopra,M.D. David Simon, M.D.

 

However, perhaps all it has to do is realize that it never left the universal soul, it has been within the soul all of the time.

 

Perhaps if we discover this on earth, when the spirit is still within the body, the spirit will remember this when it leaves. Or perhaps it wont, as the spirit doesnt have a mind.

 

Perhaps a way to remember this, is to strengthen the bonds of mind body spirit.

 

Especially of mind and spirit. As the personal part of the spirit, forms part of the personality as does the mind, I wonder if that is the link.

 

There is no need to strive for perfection, but by living authentically, from spirit, and as our higher self on earth will establish the link once we leave, as the higher self is in the collective domain.

 

 

This probably makes no sense to anyone else, but I've tried to put it into words.

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Someone once told me (just reflecting on the theory you have right there, Angel) That since there is no time causality, that when you pass on you begin this journey and you also can visit those who you know and love because there is no time applied. So basically people who are going through this journey can not only guide and watch over their loved ones, but also learn and progress as a spirit (whether they're now guiding or preparing to reincarnate). My thoughts on that is maybe if you contact the recently deceased RIGHT after they've left their body, they may be confused because they haven't journeyed very far/progressed very far in their spiritual development, and maybe that's why it isn't a good idea to contact them. I don't know for sure though, and that's a really interesting concept, thanks for sharing :) And thanks to everyone who's posted! I really wondered what everyone thought on this topic, it popped in my mind as another question mark when I was reading yet another book in which the author said it was bad to contact the frequently deceased.

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I only am going to comment on my personal experience. A friend I knew passed away. I had not spoke with him for a few months. The night he died he came to me in a dream. He told me he was ok. That he was happy. I tried contacting him. His mother confirmed he passed away the night of my dream. My Grandmother came to me within 2 months of her passing.

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I thought i'd share an experience I had. My brother died almost 17 years ago. When he was alive, I would often dream about him but as soon as he died it completely stopped. i kept waiting to have a dream about him, but never had one. I thought it was odd, but didn't worry too much about it.

A few years ago, my mom told me that a close family friend had called to tell her that my brother had come to visit her in a dream. She also told me that she was jealous, because she never dreamed about it. I told her that I didn't dream about him either, and we both thought it was strange.

A few weeks later, I had a dream where he came to visit me while i was riding on a train. He apologized for not being around to protect me when i was growing up. I tried to touch him, and he disappeared. I woke up in the middle of the night with tears rolling down my cheeks,and the feeling he was still with me for a few minutes. I also had the feeling that he was traveling through dreams, looking for his loved ones.

I didn't tell my mom about it, because i didn't want to upset her. a couple of months later, she told me that he had come to her in a dream. In her dream he was a young child and she was in an airport.That's when i told her about my experience and we were both amazed.

A few days later, I read an article in The Wall Street Journal that talked about dreaming about their deceased relatives. The artice said that those dreams almost always take place in areas of travel, like airports,cars,and trains. It made me believe that it is possible for the deceased to travel to different people after they ahve passed into the next life. I'm not sure what took so long, but i will always be grateful he came to see me that night.

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Oh yes, when we die, I think our personal spirit leaves our body and returns to the collective consciousness. From there it may return to the universal soul or perhaps be re-incarnated. Until it reaches the Universal Soul it can become many things, perhaps this is decided at the collective stage. Until it reaches the Universal soul it may be subject to things such as time, space and causality - as it has not reached the infinite yet.

 

I would like to ask three questions of you, if I may.

 

Firstly, what do you believe comprises the personal soul?

 

Secondly, do you consider the personal soul unchanging?

 

And thirdly, what do you believe happens to the personal soul when it returns to the infinite completely?

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Guest Angel C

Thank you Armado, you have obviously read, tried to understand and considered what I typed, even though it was a bit difficult to understand becasuse I didnt word it too well. So seriously, I thank you for that.

 

I will try to answer.

 

Firstly, what do you believe comprises the personal soul?

 

This bit I understand reasonably well: Your authentic personality, the personality you were born with. Our uniqueness, the talents we are born with. Perhaps past life memories. The part of our personlity that is not to do with ego. Where inner knowledge about self can be reached. This I beleive is the part of the human organism which give us the personal survival instinct, (not as in reproductive etc), the part of us that psychologists refer to which kicks in and motivates us when we are at breaking point. The part that when we are pushed to our limits, tells the mind to shut up and takes over and makes us push through.

 

Secondly, do you consider the personal soul unchanging?

 

I think it can be strenghtened through being aware of our spirituality. But am unsure whether it is just our awareness of our personal spirit that is strengthened, as I feel it is always strong, but not always nurtured. I suppose it could weakened by our minds - if our ego was to become overactive, but agian maybe this is just awareness of it that is weakened.

 

And thirdly, what do you believe happens to the personal soul when it returns to the infinite completely?

 

TRUE REALITY - Becomes one with all of creation. No longer separate beings. But this is the strange paradox, our soul is already there. Once we personally realize this, we truly feel the oneness. Once that feeling of oneness is reached, there is no turning back.

 

This has to be realized and felt by the personal soul! It cant be taught or indoctrinated into our minds. It has to be EXPERIENCED!

 

To put it bluntly, how could someone who committed horrific crimes towards other beings continue to do so, once this realization is truly known?. But it is a personal realization, so how many lifetimes would it take such a person to realize this, before they stop living in the "hell" that is the creation of their minds.

 

Hope that makes some sense.

 

Waiting for you to pick holes in it lol - feel free to do so. :)

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I don't believe I have a soul. From what I've read in this thread, most people who've replied believe in a soul.

 

Now, since you can hardly say I'm wrong (it's my belief, and it cannot be disproven... yet) and I can't say that soul affirmers are wrong (for the same reasons) some interesting questions are raised.

 

If we take Arma's conjecture that the nature of a soul and its journey is defined by itself as true, then it is entirely possible that my soul has defined itself into not existing.

 

How does a being with no soul interact physically and psychically with beings that have souls?

 

And to Angel, if I have no soul, what defines my personality? Where do I find inner truth and oneness with the universe?

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When I was young (6-7ish), I used to often come into contact with the recently passed over, whether it was through dreams or actually seeing a manifestation of them as a 'spirit' or 'ghost' or whatever you want to call it. I never tried to do it, it just happened; sometimes they came with messages, other times they were absolutely oblivious to me and were just doing their own thing. It wasn't something I could predict or prepare myself for. It just happened when it was meant to.

 

As I've gotten older, there have been a few circumstances where I've tried to contact the very recently passed over. During my freshman year of high school, a close friend passed away after an intense battle with cancer. I went to a small school, and everyone in my class was fairly devastated. I had been having dreams about her, and that morning I woke up incredibly anxious and overwhelmed, and somehow I knew that she would pass away that day. Sure enough, at about 10:30 that morning an assembly was called for only the freshman girls, and my heart dropped. I knew. After the assembly, I left school, and I had the overwhelming urge to try to contact her. At the time I felt like she might have a message for someone, but in retrospect, I think it was more a product of my grief. I needed to contact her for myself, for me, so I could make sure she was okay.

 

I tried and I tried, but every time, I would just be overwhelmed with emotions coming at me from all different directions. Anger, sadness, grief, depression, frustration, loneliness, laughter, happiness, joy, anxiety, sleeplessness, they would all just throw themselves at me. I took that as a sign that there was too much emotion surrounding her passing still, that I wasn't meant to contact her until she had 'settled in' more. I was thinking about this thread last night and I decided that I would try to contact her again and see what happened. Again, the same heavy flow of emotions. Now, my freshman year was...6 years ago, so she isn't recently passed over anymore. In my mind, I saw the color yellow very vividly, her favorite color, and also a color I associate strongly with happiness and lightness of heart. I also smelled honeysuckle, which was her favorite scent; they grew wild all over town, and she loved to roll up and down the street in her wheelchair just smelling them. I know that she's alright in whatever 'afterlife' she's experiencing, but I also know that she doesn't want to be contacted.

 

Truthfully, I don't think there's anything inherently 'wrong' with trying to contact the recently deceased. It all depends on your personal ethics and what you believe. But it is my personal belief and my personal experience that in traumatic or sudden deaths, often there's too much raw emotion there. As an empath, I have a difficult time separating myself from the emotions of others, so I can't wade through the swirl of emotions enough to contact that person. I also believe that certain spirits just truly want to rest in peace, and will go to any lengths to keep from being 'found'.

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Thank you IWannaBeMe, Frolzagain, and Mayday for sharing those experiences with us. I really want to share my experience but it's too soon to discuss in detail for me, the strong emotion is still there...

 

* Edited by Author.

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Waiting for you to pick holes in it lol - feel free to do so. :)

Do you want me to? As you are already aware, those questions were particularly chosen because they would serve to draw out the patterns of thinking fundamental to the direction your belief system has been developing rapidly towards.

 

I am very, very familiar with that direction. It is a direction of development I have come to regard with something akin to terror. This is something I have had difficulty articulating because it is the product of a means of abstract thinking that is the progeny of an abstract kind of thinking. Utilizing those three questions might give me the stranglehold I need on the subject to make my perspective presentable in a fashion others can digest besides myself. But it would probably be the most invasive and overtly condemning post I've written here yet. You are a kind woman and I am having second thoughts about the morality of the direction I have taken in regard to our discussions. As such I am not certain it would be appropriate of me to make my thinking known without tangible evidence, which I do not have.

Perhaps it would be best if I decided to let this particular beast lie?

 

If we take Arma's conjecture that the nature of a soul and its journey is defined by itself as true, then it is entirely possible that my soul has defined itself into not existing.

 

How does a being with no soul interact physically and psychically with beings that have souls?

 

This is a misconception. I can't rightly blame you for it. It is difficult for me to articulate abstract subtleties that are original to me. Not to say I am the first to think them, oh no. But they are new to me, and wrestling with their presentability is a constant struggle. So, let me clarify my position:

 

For the duration of a mortal life, the structure of a typical incarnate spiritual being is reinforced by the psyche of the shell they inhabit. Those who have not led lives before and are original to their bodies grow with them until they die, and at that point their fate depends entirely upon on their ability to cope with an alien mode of being without the reinforcing pillars of humanity that directed their pattern of growth. Those who have done this many times before often find that the shell they develop in does not fit them at all, and this causes some degree of discomfort until either side breaks the other in. It is entirely possible that an example of a failed capacity to endure the rigors of the spirit world lies in the earthbound spirit; the thing that finds no rest.

 

The point I am trying to make is that I firmly believe at this point that there are many, many factors in this system, and it is one with many outcomes. I do not consider myself to have the kind of mastery and understanding of it necessary to off-offhandedly judge what human being will make the cross and what will not, although there are general indicators of spiritual robustness and health.

 

The question that gnaws at me more than any now is... What is it that human bodies condense and give coherent shape to in the absence of an incarnating spirit with a predefined form? The miracle of life occurs on both worlds at once - that much seems clear to me. But why?

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Guest Angel C
And to Angel, if I have no soul, what defines my personality? Where do I find inner truth and oneness with the universe?

 

 

Well this is difficult because I cannot say to you that I believe you have a soul, if you do not. I believe in your reality as much as I do my own.

 

Your mind would define your personality. Your genes, your environment, your human instinct, life experiences, intellect and your ego. Your Inner truth, would come from a combination of these things. But that doesnt quite explain to me, the part of us that is unique, that deep inner knowing and drive. To me even psycholgy implies that a synegy is taking place.

 

I'm not sure oneness really applies in your reality, but your connections to others would be through your social interactions with others and your impact on the lives of others and on the environement. You said you become worm food when you die - therefore remaining part of nature, perhaps eventually becoming one. But it seems a long way round.

 

What does oneness mean to you?

 

You didnt ask me about connecting psychically, but I would imagine that you think like my husband, that it is all down to telepathy - which is using the brain differently. He thinks that when we think we are talking to spirit that is just our way of receiving telepathic information. I also have a highly educated friiend who believes that we are basically machines, but her mind has been opened when I have read for her or given her healing.

 

Of course you know all of this, and can answer it far better than me.

 

I believe we all have a soul. I was brought up humanist/atheist and have studied a little psychology, but I believe there is far, far more. How could there not be?

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Guest Angel C

Armado, how can you say that my way of thinking terrifies you, but not tell me why that is?

 

I dont know what questions to ask to draw out your beliefs, as I am not familiar with your belief system.

 

Maybe you could just tell me what it is, and I could look it up.

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I think Arma's hinting at something we saw a little of earlier, in explaining why some psychics say they can't do this or that then make up a reason as to why. I found that post highly entertaining and quite agreeable, and would like to hear more. But like Arma says, this may not be the right place or time for such ideas.

 

Please correct me if I am way off!

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Guest Angel C

Hi Fooze

 

Perhaps, but I feel he is hinting at something far deeper than the egos of psychics.

 

I edited my reply to you a little, included a question or two, didnt realize you were online.

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Guest Angel C

Armado, are you hinting that you believe my soul will fail the tests of this lifetime, if I continue to believe the way I do?

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Guest Dot
The miracle of life occurs on both worlds at once - that much seems clear to me. But why?

I had an odd thought. I pictured ants. How ants are born either workers or diggers (however it works), either way, there are different types. Perhaps we're all destined to turn out a certain way, or, our spirit makes that choice. Like, a career choice. This might sound odd in the realm of spirit, but what if that is how it is... it might make sense. If more are born, perhaps there are more "spirit jobs" available. As the Universe grows and more is created (assuming it hasn't all been created already, which... I somehow doubt) then more "spirit jobs" or things to do as a spirit is broadened and the choices a spirit has is advanced. There may be more jobs opening up for some spirits... Gosh, what a way of putting it. Then again, maybe I just thought of it because I just came back from a sort of information night on career choices... But ... ANTS. :blink:

 

Armado, are you hinting that you believe my soul will fail the tests of this lifetime, if I continue to believe the way I do?

Well, I can't speak for Arma, but I'd like to input my own opinion. Personally, I don't think you can "fail" a test of a lifetime unless you somehow, drastically screw up. Angel C, I don't think you're on the way to do this. You're doing the best you can, that's all anyone can ask for, that's all you can do. Even if you mess up (which I highly, highly doubt) you're still going to become spirit, just like anybody else. In the end, we all become spirit and our spirit chooses or is directed upon the path necessary for its enlightenment or, whatever. Y'know? :) I think everybody's beliefs are equal. In the end, it's a way of living your life. It can make it easier, it can make it more challenging (but not necessarily bad!) and in the end we're all spirit. So what do ya know.

 

I think Arma's hinting at something we saw a little of earlier, in explaining why some psychics say they can't do this or that then make up a reason as to why.

Again, I'm not speaking for Arma, but I reckon - well yeah, that psychic thing was pretty funny (and true, at that!) but it's a fault of character. There are character faults everywhere, and there are good characters everywhere. No matter what profession, no matter where you go, they're there. But you can avoid them! Bwahahaha! :D :D

 

Well this is difficult because I cannot say to you that I believe you have a soul, if you do not. I believe in your reality as much as I do my own.

In the end, it is up to our beliefs, so if you believe you have no soul, that's your prerogative. I think you have one, but if you don't, well... "I think therefore I am," says it all, I think.

 

I'm not entirely sure why I decided to add my thoughts into this thread, but I did. So there. :P

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Armado, are you hinting that you believe my soul will fail the tests of this lifetime, if I continue to believe the way I do?

 

That is not mine to judge. I am not capable at this time. Besides that, what you and I would consider this life's tests likely differs radically.

 

Laboring under the frustration of ideas that resist being put to words is a weight I no longer wish to shoulder. I am going to say my piece, and the consequences of it be damned.

 

You cherry-pick from the tree of life.

 

Your personal soul can change but only when you want it to. You say on one hand, it is the authentic you - it is what experiences, it is not to do with ego, it is here to experience and it cannot be improved or changed because it is perfect. That makes it analogous to the unchanging definition of the higher self in every way I can think of. And, somehow, it carries the weights of the knowledge of prior lives yet is somehow exempt from the weight of this one on a spiritual level.

 

For it to shape you, here, with the weight of prior lives, and still be authentically you, it (you) must be subject to change. Each life it leads adds to the sum of that experience. The sum of that experience influences how the next life is led. This is -change-. This is -development-.

 

You say, this life has tests for you. If your soul cannot change, and summarily cannot learn, what is the point of testing it? That notion is self-defeating. You say, the mind is what seeks perfection and growth - what is the point of a spiritual agency testing a mortal mind alone? That mortal mind will die and be dust.

 

You have not said this part directly, but it is an inevitable belief considering the direction you go with the others - you consider all souls perfect, all souls equal, all the same, ultimately. What, then, separates the personal soul of your ascended masters from personal soul of your common man? There is only one thing that could separate them if it is not their own soul. Their human mind, as determined by genetics and chance. Let what that means sink in for a moment.

 

...

 

If all of us are inherently perfect, within god and with god in us, utterly equal, then we are truly one in the same. What separates the kind men from the murderous thieves? I am going to use an awful example. If you were accosted in an alley and had your throat slit, Angel C, what would your final thought be? "I am the same as my killers."? If our souls have nothing to learn, and cannot be changed, virtue has no meaning! No killer will learn from their remorse, because they can't. That thing at the core of them can never change - it is experiencing the act of being a murderer. That is the essence of the true sensual universe - that all things are done for the sense, the experience, of them. It is complete amorality.

 

I will never believe this. It strikes me as profoundly, morally wrong.

 

This whole attitude trivializes something sacred to me; divine growth. The notion that within each of us there is a flickering flame that we have a duty to tend to, that it might be its brightest. You say, who would commit such crimes when they come to such a realization? Who can come to such a realization without the capacity to change - and in changing, learn?

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What, then, separates the personal soul of your ascended masters from personal soul of your common man? There is only one thing that could separate them if it is not their own soul. Their human mind, as determined by genetics and chance. Let what that means sink in for a moment.
And yet it is these ascended masters who dare to assert that we are all the same. What would that mean?

 

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I knew you weren't a nihilist, Arma ;)

 

Virtue is a concept created by humans. It gives us a distinct survival advantage as a species. I believe in it because I want to. I want to stay alive.

 

I know that not everyone shares my beliefs and desires, but I try to teach the value of that belief, and provide opportunities to others to demonstrate their understanding of that same belief.

 

Yes, I am a huge, smelly hippy.

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And to Angel, if I have no soul, what defines my personality? Where do I find inner truth and oneness with the universe?
So do you believe then that when you die the being known as "fooze" will no longer exist?

Also I assume that you have already solved the dilemma of where to find your inner truth all on your own? Care to share?

 

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