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EDIT: I went off on a tangent. IWannaBeMe, you're right. It's not a sudden reflection of everybody having clarity, but maybe in some cases, it is. That's what I'm saying. There are people out there who do better apart.

 

I agree there are people who are better apart. My own parents are divorced and I was happy for it. I am not going to argue that point. I just do not believe that is the root of things lately.

 

 

 

 

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So you preach temperance and individual judgment for all situations, leaving nothing to crass generalization. Tayesin, I cannot reasonably condemn such an attitude. It is the foundation of any reasonable moral code. But I firmly believe that kindness and forgiveness are, like all things, subject to a need for moderation themselves. To be kind, here, to be gentle and unassuming, is to encourage laxity, and to establish an environment where it is acceptable to be an oath-breaker.

 

Sometimes those vows cannot be held, but that shame is important for people who lack the internal drive to discipline themselves. They must feel this bitter sting in the form of condemnation, and learn from it without a shoulder to lean on, that next time they might remember their failing as a terrible weight, and guard themselves and their fellow man more carefully from the danger of recklessness.

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shame is important for people who lack the internal drive to discipline themselves. They must feel this bitter sting in the form of condemnation, and learn from it without a shoulder to lean on, that next time they might remember their failing as a terrible weight, and guard themselves and their fellow man more carefully from the danger of recklessness.

 

 

Although I respect your right to differ I find this point of view extremely alarming. :unsure:

 

 

EDIT: I am going to have breakfast and then I think I want to add something here...

 

If there is shame to be shouldered (and I don't believe that self-awareness only occurs as a result of feelings of guilt and/or shame), then I prefer to see it placed in the hands of those who thought it up in the first place! :P

 

Take the oath if you want to, sure... that's your right (no, I do not mean you personally -- I speak of the anonymous masses here), but for people to be forced to make a promise about forever (In many cases by a religious doctrine they do not even support!) is, in my opinion, down right BARBARIC!

 

Haven't many of us just been vociferously debating the reality of change? :lol:

 

People change! :wub:

 

One way of getting around breaking oaths is to make no promises that you are not able to keep.

 

In fact, make few promises to anyone except yourself, yet defend those promises pledged to yourself zealously. :angel:

 

The best we can do for our fellow beings (women, men or creatures) is to try to treat each with compassion and understanding... that way the learning process can create positive loving energy conducive to the receipt of Universal wisdom.

 

Yes, Tayesin I agree... so thank you, Armadodecadron for a most productive discussion .

 

I like a challenge that results in the refining or consolidating of my view of the Universe. :)

 

SHAME

 

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Armadodecadron,

Yes I agree that all things should be in moderation, hence the need for boundaries to what we will accept from others. That we forgive what we perceive as trespass is important, not only for the growth of those forgiven, but for our own personal growth. If we do not we forge an anchoring point for our emotions which we simply cannot move beyond. You will have met many people anchored to a past event from which they have not emotionally matured as yet.

 

Healing must include the Shame that people feel or are MADE TO FEEL by others for whatever energy-vampirism they are doing it for. You speak of discipline, which is very important, but, since we do not know all the details of a situation how can we judge another for lacking self-discipline because they left an unhealthy marriage? I can see with many marriages people are leaving for a variety of reasons and many of those reasons to me are not real reasons to break the Oath taken, but it is not up to me to judge, nor condemn, or to insure shame on either person from that marriage. I simply do not have that right.

 

One of the worst emotions a large portion of society carries individually is Shame and/or Guilt. This is a most unhealthy process that leads to further complications before the healing is complete, if at all. Guilt and Shame are viral in as much as they seep all the way into a person and then begin to fester into a large variety of disorders and illnesses. How can we then say it is deserved and should be fostered or strenghtened by any caring Soul? Would we not prefer for each of those effected people to be healed and then gain the clarity of what their experiences really meant for them?

 

We may never agree, or even reach some consensus on this issue, but I do think this conversation is a productive one.

 

Thank You.

 

 

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Healing must include the Shame that people feel or are MADE TO FEEL by others for whatever energy-vampirism they are doing it for.

Thank You.

 

I don't agree with this idea. I don't think healing is necessarily preceded by shame. It can be and may even mostly be, but I don't see it as a necessity. :angel:

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I agree Victoria that shame doesn't necessarily precede healing. My point was in relation to Arma's strictness in the need to force others to feel shame. Guilt and Shame are two voracious beliefs many people hold onto for far too long so it was my understanding that the healing of these to things is part of our overall healing process after divorces.

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I agree Victoria that shame doesn't necessarily precede healing. My point was in relation to Arma's strictness in the need to force others to feel shame. Guilt and Shame are two voracious beliefs many people hold onto for far too long so it was my understanding that the healing of these to things is part of our overall healing process after divorces.

 

 

Oh, I see... :)

 

well... thanks for clarifying that. :angel:

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Guilt and Shame are viral in as much as they seep all the way into a person and then begin to fester into a large variety of disorders and illnesses.
Guilt and shame are viral in that it spreads like a virus. When someone feels shame they hope to gain relief by spreading the feeling to others.

 

They must feel this bitter sting in the form of condemnation, and learn from it without a shoulder to lean on, that next time they might remember their failing as a terrible weight, and guard themselves and their fellow man more carefully from the danger of recklessness.
This shame is something that people will feel when doing something that goes against what has been indoctrinated in the culture. Where do you draw the line? It would be best for society for me to get a beautiful wife and have many beautiful children, but I personally would not be happy with that. Instead, I choose to follow my happiness by being in a relationship with the gender I am attracted to. And many people out there have tried to make me feel shame over my choice, my reckless behavior.

If you will allow me to be presumptuous, is that you want that promiscuous partner to feel shame over breaking a societal norm, or is it that you want her to understand the pain that she caused you?

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Dang Kai, you just asked what I've been trying not to write. Based on the strength of feelings about making those who leave a relationship feel shame, I wondered, felt, that this was the cause of such determined need to hurt someone else.

 

You know, while I do not make the same choice as you, I see no reason why anyone should attempt to make you feel bad about your choice in life. Good on you for being You, and for not taking other people's hang-ups onboard.

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Is this bond not sacred?

 

Before I proceed further, there appears to be a minor misconception I need to address - while the individual customs regarding marriage vary wildly, some of which are downright unreasonable and silly, the marriage I am addressing is pure and simple - two partners voluntarily enter into a pact to keep each other for the remaining duration of their lives, and seal this with a ceremony of some sort. What the ceremony is, isn't really important. Societal norms do not concern me. Society is as of this very moment a runaway train in many respects besides this one.

 

I am speaking exclusively concerning the "monogamous bond". If you personally don't believe this has any special value or purpose beyond serving as an additional institution of social standards of dubious worth, I don't think I can even communicate with you, because you are rejecting what I consider the highest form of romantic love a human being can feel during their short stay here. Now to the specifics-

 

 

Victoria:

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I consider it a moral imperative that all people seek marriage, and that unions without it are amoral or lack meaning. No, absolutely not! Not the direction I was hoping to go with this at all. But hopefully my prior remark clears that up - I do not consider forced or marriage "under compulsion" good in any way. It does nothing but establish mock bonds that by their very nature cannot be kept. That such a vow would even be made is a failing on many fronts - from the individuals themselves who do not resist the inherent evil of their situation, to the social pressures which blindly seek to regulate a force they have no business controlling.

 

As for forever, I never said that word so much as once in this conversation. I am not sure where you got that notion. The traditional vow in marriage has always been ''Until death do us part." There's a good reason for that, obviously. It isn't the place of human beings to decide what their higher selves shall devote themselves to eternally. That isn't even possible, as I see it.

 

People change!

 

One way of getting around breaking oaths is to make no promises that you are not able to keep.

 

In fact, make few promises to anyone except yourself, yet defend those promises pledged to yourself zealously.

Absolutely. Making a promise you cannot keep is a terrible evil when it hurts another. The foundation of positive, enduring love is knowing what you're looking for, and settling for nothing less, and yet...

 

My mother and father are happily married, going on 50. They are different as night and day. My mother is a complete twit and my father is a much more rational person. The woman is that special blending of vindictive and delusional that can turn the most casual social environment into a raging inferno of needless petty bickering. Observing him endure her grossly distended scope of reality has always been something of an inspiration to me - He isn't thinking about his own selfish needs. He's thinking about the vow he made and the woman he married. His attitude is increasingly rare in this day and age. She was always her own brand of loopy, he tells me, but the years have made her far more so. People change, but their vows do not. If he were a member of this more recent and selfish generation I have no doubt he would have turned on her by now. No matter how much a person changes, if you entered into a pact with them that said "until death do us part", you have an obligation to keep that pact, even if doing so is unpleasant. Doing otherwise is sometimes a necessary evil, but always an evil.

 

 

Tayesin:

We largely agree regarding the role of shame, and how it is impossible to accurately judge any single situation with a singular perspective alone, although I think that the process of healing you know differs from the kind of internal change I feel is better cultivated in an individual. I intentionally carry spiritual scars as emblems, mementos and reminders of past failings and lessons. Weights I have learned that healers by their very calling set out to release others from. I am going to do you the honor of presenting my true self to you in that regard - I consider this practice alien. I find it utterly bizarre how quickly people seek to alleviate internal suffering.

 

After reading that, you might say to me; "It is not the lesson healers seek to eliminate, it is the trauma." I challenge this, and I call to witness your own experience as a healer - what stands out more than anything else in the people you have worked with, when you bring to bear your art? Their scars; their wounds. As the old saying goes, once bitten, twice shy.

 

And so it is with shame. One who leads a life eaten away by shame is not likely to repeat that same error when their time comes to lead another life. People who do not see and feel suffering both in themselves and others for acts of cruelty will not learn the err of their ways. It has always been this way. They -must- suffer, quietly, on their own time, with their own sense of shame. That is why we have shame. Shame will always be. Human kind will never be free of is as long as they can err and do each other wrong. This is just.

 

 

Kai:

Guilt and shame are viral in that it spreads like a virus. When someone feels shame they hope to gain relief by spreading the feeling to others.

That is a crass over-generalization regarding humanity, and betrays a surprisingly condemning attitude. There are rotten apples that behave in such a manner, yes. But there are many people in the world who do their best to understand the meaning of these emotions and to learn from the negativity of them. I have never done this and have never been motivated to do so, and I have always been on the receiving end of this pain.

 

This shame is something that people will feel when doing something that goes against what has been indoctrinated in the culture. Where do you draw the line? It would be best for society for me to get a beautiful wife and have many beautiful children, but I personally would not be happy with that. Instead, I choose to follow my happiness by being in a relationship with the gender I am attracted to. And many people out there have tried to make me feel shame over my choice, my reckless behavior.

Comments like that try my patience, because they insinuate in me the kind of narrow-minded simplicity I'm not even capable of entertaining in my wildest and most Freudian dreams. Nevertheless, I will assume it was inadequate communication on my part that lead to this. I must stress, again, that I am not and never was speaking on the virtues of societal norms. They are as good or ill as the people in them. Your trials and tribulations as someone who possesses a sexuality that isn't popular with a bunch of pea-brained conservatives, is representative of another problem inherent in society altogether. I have been and am speaking exclusively on the importance of loyalty and honor to a partner you actively decided upon of your own free will, and offered yourself to for the duration of this life, which I firmly believe is a form of morality that applies to anyone who decides to establish an exclusive romantic relationship.

 

If you will allow me to be presumptuous, is that you want that promiscuous partner to feel shame over breaking a societal norm, or is it that you want her to understand the pain that she caused you?

We all have that big one that really knocks the wind out of us. I made her understand with nothing more than my own feelings, and her understanding will haunt her for the rest of her life, believe you me.

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Armadodecadron

 

You've given me a much clearer understanding now from the overall response, thank you.

 

Firstly, how is it that Marriage is Sacred. I mean, I know that is a premise of one or two ancient and indoctrinated belief-systems that are approaching their "use by date". Given I understand how those control dramas worked and how the indoctrination process has worked these past few thousand years, I still do not see how we can claim Marriage as being a Sacred thing. It is a man made concept after all and therefore highly fallable.

 

Now I can agree that some people do quickly seek healing or removal of an issue, and in my experiece much of the modalities on offer today are ineffectual. Many others seek it in the arms of another person, or a house, or holiday, or other object of focus. Very few understand the healing process, and what a person will come to understand about their own actions and how that effected others. Real healing is not a quick fix at the local healer's.

 

Being in suffering for one's actions is no guarantee of non-repeats. That can only come when the person has truly understood everything they set in motion and the results of those instigations. Healing still comes after.

 

I mean no offence from here on...

 

I see you are providing us with an old traditonal view of marriage based on your family, and one that illustrates perfectly the ineffectiveness of those traditional views. I read about a man, long suffering under the barrage of control dramas from a viperish women, who did not have the guts to stand up and either sort it out or end it. Yes, brow beaten I think it was called back then. Why? More than likely he is a product of his times, when people stayed together no matter what because our Society had a mold we were all expected to fit. No dissent allowed, no care for each individual that makes up the whole and more control than you can handle. The same thing happens today in many relationships. I see control drama marriages all the time and I know that each person in those relationships is not an equal, not being nourished, nor respected as a human being with feelings and is being treated as Owned by the other partner. That is not Marriage, that is Prison.

 

Love may well have been a part of why they married. Surprisingly, young girls got pregnant to young boys just as much back then as they do today, only then it was a seen as a blight on a family's "rep" and was easily remedied by marrying them off. Many older couples guard that secret very well, even 50 years down the track. Isn't it so stupid that we value Appearance above truth and honesty?

 

Not sure if you understand how real emotional-issue healing works, and I'm not referring to going off to the local Healer to have an issue removed in a proces that requires you to not be a part of your own healing. Those healings deal with the onion layers Shrek spoke about!! Real healing takes a few steps. One is to recognise that there is an issue.. which is the step most of us fail at. Another is to accept and become responsible, own your stuff, and understand how your actions and expectations affect others. By now the person may be ready to really heal the issue. And so far, the most effective way I know is to let ourselves really feel that emotion.. because we are afraid to feel it fully and so we suppress it. Yes, it takes great courage to let yourself feel what you are afraid of. When doing this, we can feel as if we are being smashed about on the rocks until the feeling finally fades naturally and is then replaced with an image in your mind. this is a core image and it relates to the time and event where this issue and it's covering layers first initiated.

 

I think one of the biggest problems in marriage is Expectations. We expect the other to be a certain way, to save face along with our requirements, to do and not do certain things.. in short to act as if we own that person. This is not Love. To seek for another to suffer so that we can think they might "learn their lesson" is to indicate something in need of healing within the self, as this too is not Love.

 

Be well Arma.

 

 

 

 

 

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When my husband and I took our vows... we changed them. We did not promise, till death do us part. Instead, our vows were, as long as we both shall grow. *Shrug* Those vows were what we felt was right... it was our decision.

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Dang Kai, you just asked what I've been trying not to write. Based on the strength of feelings about making those who leave a relationship feel shame, I wondered, felt, that this was the cause of such determined need to hurt someone else.

You know, while I do not make the same choice as you, I see no reason why anyone should attempt to make you feel bad about your choice in life. Good on you for being You, and for not taking other people's hang-ups onboard.

Courage or Pride, who can say. But I am someone who likes to be blunt, and get to what I believe is the heart of the issue. Obviously I mean no offense or harm to anyone and do my best to phrase my points in the way that will be the least provoking.

 

 

I have been and am speaking exclusively on the importance of loyalty and honor to a partner you actively decided upon of your own free will, and offered yourself to for the duration of this life, which I firmly believe is a form of morality that applies to anyone who decides to establish an exclusive romantic relationship.
Well if you are talking about monogamy rather then marriage, then I admit that my argument loses much weight. I obviously do not believe and never meant to suggest that you hold close minded opinions, rather I meant to point out that other people have used your arguments to judge and control others. I suppose I was trying to polarize your argument but in retrospect I think that is poor debate tactics. Wow I hate it when politicians do that! :judge:

 

My statement about shame spreading like a virus was not directed at you, it was just a thought that occurred to me and I wanted to add to Tayesin's metaphor. But...

That is a crass over-generalization regarding humanity, and betrays a surprisingly condemning attitude. There are rotten apples that behave in such a manner, yes. But there are many people in the world who do their best to understand the meaning of these emotions and to learn from the negativity of them. I have never done this and have never been motivated to do so, and I have always been on the receiving end of this pain.
We all have that big one that really knocks the wind out of us. I made her understand with nothing more than my own feelings, and her understanding will haunt her for the rest of her life, believe you me.
While I know you believe what you wrote, I believe that these two statements contradict each other. I am not trying to say that what you did was right or wrong, but I think that when it was revealed to you what she had done, you could not help but hold yourself at least partly responsible. Some would call that emotion "shame." And in your own words, "I made her understand with nothing more than my own feelings, and her understanding will haunt her for the rest of her life." She may have deserved that, but nonetheless the emotions were spread around.

 

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Dang Kai, you just asked what I've been trying not to write. Based on the strength of feelings about making those who leave a relationship feel shame, I wondered, felt, that this was the cause of such determined need to hurt someone else.

 

You know, while I do not make the same choice as you, I see no reason why anyone should attempt to make you feel bad about your choice in life. Good on you for being You, and for not taking other people's hang-ups onboard.

 

I had the same feeling, that is why I said earlier that I was sorry I contributed to this topic. I didn't know at the time if anyone else was picking up on it, and I didn't feel comfortable with coming out and asking, as I didn't feel it was any of my business.

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I had the same feeling, that is why I said earlier that I was sorry I contributed to this topic. I didn't know at the time if anyone else was picking up on it, and I didn't feel comfortable with coming out and asking, as I didn't feel it was any of my business.
Well, you're right, it's not my business. But Arma is an articulate man and Arma if you don't want us to talk about this then we will stop.

Understand that this is not about changing Arma at all. If it is believed that his opinion is a response to past pain, but it won't be talked about, then you are dismissing his point of view. On the other hand if you talk about it then we can all benefit from a more detailed understanding. And I think that is what we have been doing.

 

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Ah, civility. Civilized men swap venom in cups, with smiles and implorations to imbibe. We've come a long way from beasts, who are so much more forward, and simply spit it in each others' faces. But sometimes I miss the honesty of that way. Hahahaha!

Tayesin:

The institution is not sacred. The oath it is supposed to be representative of is sacred. This is not because "the man" says so. It is because love is sacred, and honor is sacred. Say whatever you wish. Without a sense of duty there is no loyalty and there is no monogamy. Without duty, every dream of finding "the one" by the innocent virgin will become a nightmare, every young man who wishes to find the apple of his eye and provide for her will find all the apples poisoned. Yes. Duty is a chain. It binds us to each other, and this isn't always pleasant. It is a prison cell for two. So it is with all things of this nature; double edged, with a price paid for every pleasure. When human beings learn to pay it well and beforehand, the cell can be cozy indeed.

 

And no offense, you say? Your words are a nothing less than a bold faced attack on my system of belief; you insinuate that I am bonded to outmoded ways, that because I disagree - just barely - with one particular application of the founding principles of the healer, that it must be out of ignorance, and that my attitude is a result of "the old mind", whereas yours, the free spirit, the rising bird, the new mind, is a step ahead of my tragic struggle.

 

I don't find myself worried. These conclusions were inevitable on your part. It is refreshing to see them spoken openly and with venom (by that I mean passion), rather than quietly hidden away. Too many people think the same thoughts regarding me but elect to conceal them. Anyway, you're right about at least one thing. I am very, -very- old fashioned. I bear and offer chains, and weights - but it isn't out of the blindness or the pain you're familiar with as the principle causes of negative orientations. I do what is natural to me; what has been natural to me for a very long time. I like to joke now and again that the only thing I have in common with the spiritual community of today is that we both pursue the spirit. I understand that you are looking forward to the birth of the new mindset. I understand that you have, in the past, seen what you expect to be born here come into being on other worlds.

 

I don't believe it is going to happen. Not here. This race has something strange in it. Surely you've noticed that. That oddity, that vague sense of unease that something along the weave and the way of the development of this particular collective had taken an unexpected turn. Not necessarily a wrong turn. Simply different. Perhaps even new. This is an odd direction I have taken the conversation, but the conflict of our two ideologies makes it appropriate, I think. I consider the resistance of the human race to the influence of their elders to be the mark of the wild child, the fevered prodigy. It must seem a strange thing to say given the context of our conversation, but I foresee a bright future. Just not, exactly, what anyone had in mind when they came here. And I expect that the development of the psychic and spiritual being while retaining what you would consider the old mind - the jealousy, the fire, the capacity to exclude and condemn - to be a great part of that future. It isn't really -supposed- to happen like that. The two orientations are normally mutually exclusive. But, ah, there's always something new to learn and do. I'll make you a friendly wager regarding the world we're in - fifty space bucks says that humanity isn't going to go up, and it isn't going to go down. It's going to forward.

 

Moonwillow:

I applaud the caution and forethought behind the vow you made with your husband.

 

Kai:

Oh, you never disappoint, Kai. The single most likely contradiction in anything I've said in this entire conversation and you've gone straight for its throat without reservation.

 

I cannot speak for others, but I consider there to be an extreme and self explanatory difference between my actions and the actions of individuals who, upon feeling the same bitterness, proclaim to themselves "$@#% it." and do unto others what was done to them. I had assumed that this behavior was what you were referencing when you said:

Guilt and shame are viral in that it spreads like a virus. When someone feels shame they hope to gain relief by spreading the feeling to others.

I have found this behavior to be bafflingly common among spurned or betrayed lovers. Misery loves company, as you astutely noted.

 

It's a funny thing that my stance here should be considered the psychological result of past pain. Out of all of this, I am not one of the ones who has come to the conclusion that strictly monogamous relationships are so unbearably painful and difficult over time that expecting them to last when they make a vow to last is unreasonable. That notion has been expressed by a good many in this conversation, in bitter tones indeed. And yet I still have every romantic ideal in me bright and fresh and new as it was when I was a little boy, utterly untarnished by the bitterness of my own experiences with betrayal.

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Armadodecadron,

Thank you. Maybe we both have had a misunderstanding my friend. It is not my intention to berate you for your beliefs, I am speaking fairly openly without shrinking and know it is not my place to change anyone, only to plant the ocassional seed if possible. This may sound haughty but that is not the intent, and never would I believe myself to above another person.. having struggled considerably over the years to find a more humble way of being without retreating, well, stillstruggling with that aspect. More than happy to let you be you and me be me, and hopefully to enjoy many more in depth conversations. That you hold your beliefs and stand tall in doing so is a great positive in my way of thinking, it is just that we cannot agree on somethings.

 

While it sounds as if I am opposed to anything old ways, the reality is different as I do see many good things which should come forward with humanity, as well as those things I see which harbour negative behaviours. Honour, Romantic Love, a sense of Duty and all other positive experiences are a must for humanity otherwise we may only see further decadence in our future. I do not know the answer to what we see unravelling in our society, but I do know a large percentage of people have been effected by this decline, including you and I.

 

You know, I am that Wild Child grown older, but just as fired-up at times. Forgive me this idiosyncrasy. It has caused me many problems over the years, even when I gave up and entered the expectation world of Society again. A failed marriage was once enough for me, and so choose to not co-join based on not wanting to be involved in another person's control dramas and expectations. So I place Freedom high on the list of Positives for Humanity. I took on the role of single parent because I understood my Duty to this being I assisted in bringing into the world, whereas her other parent could not due to only being able to see her own "needs". And I would not change a thing. I am more happy in single and Celibate life than ever I was in marriage or relationships.. no one is attempting to control me, coerse me, outright manipulate me or berate me for what I am doing or not doing or saying and not reaching their highest expectations of me.... hell mate, I don't reach my own highest expectations of me becaues I am aware that we set that benchmark too high for any human being.

 

Yes I can see what you mean with humanity here. There is something within us that is at the same time strong and resilient, yet controlling and ungiving. My space bucks won't even buy into a wager, after factoring in more inflation. :rolleyes:

 

Can I say one of the things I have enjoyed the most in these conversation has been the clarity with which you write, being able to get across very well what you think and mean and responding openly. Thank you so much.

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EDIT: Yes, I know I changed a few things! :P

 

Is this bond not sacred?

 

It depends what you mean by “sacred”... I don't know if I do call it sacred...

 

two partners voluntarily enter into a pact to keep each other for the remaining duration of their lives, and seal this with a ceremony of some sort.

 

And at the time Taken voluntarily the oath is powerful, sure. I agree that most people believe it and so make the oath with genuine intent, but not everyone makes the promise for the same reason. Then if the marriage breaks down, when there are, in the words of the Australian Law, "irreconcilable differences", to stay in a relationship that is not fulfilling or happy makes a mockery of the bond.

 

I am speaking exclusively concerning the "monogamous bond". If you personally don't believe this has any special value or purpose beyond serving as an additional institution of social standards of dubious worth, I don't think I can even communicate with you, because you are rejecting what I consider the highest form of romantic love a human being can feel during their short stay here.

 

I hope you speak in the heat of the moment because it would be such a waste of potential learning on both our parts should you decide to sever all communication just because I have a different belief. I respect your views on this, I can even understand why you see it that way, maybe that’s what it’s “supposed”, to be BUT I see it as one form of romantic love, not necessarily the epitome. I do reject that! But before you say "Adieu" I will answer you... :P

 

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I consider it a moral imperative that all people seek marriage, and that unions without it are amoral or lack meaning.

Not at all. That is a ludicrous misapprehension. :P No doubt due to the lack of sleep, Armadodecadron!

As for forever, I never said that word so much as once in this conversation. I am not sure where you got that notion.

 

Oath... --> ''Until death do us part."

 

In any human existence that's about as "forever" as you can get!

 

Making a promise you cannot keep is a terrible evil when it hurts another.

 

I find that statement excessively hyperbolic, but I do agree that if you knowingly make a promise that you cannot keep it is inappropriate, dysfunctional, potentially hurtful and will, no doubt, rebound. The frivolous scattering of promises with no intent of honouring your vow is not to be recommended. And yet…

 

things do happen, we might not like what happens but we choose to be hurt. We don't have to respond with bitterness and invective. People can only hurt us if we give them permission to.

 

The foundation of positive, enduring love is knowing what you're looking for, and settling for nothing less…

 

I agree that we shouldn't be prepared to settle for second best (otherwise that is all we will get :P ) However, in my work I see that what people are often "looking" for can be subconsciously dictated to by old conditioning. They will look for someone with whom they can "fix" previous disappointing relationships, or someone with whom they can "fix" the dysfunctional notions of marriage and love that surround them and condition them as they grow up.

 

Doing otherwise is sometimes a necessary evil, but always an evil.

 

Again I find this a strange hyperbole... and "a crass generalisation"!

Such blithe use of definites, Armadodecadron. :rolleyes:

 

Dear honest "old-fashioned" Armadodecadron * hug*... I sense that you are still struggling to come to terms with what you see as betrayal by your ex. That’s only natural, but I am sad that you are still thinking negatively about her and envisaging her torment because what you give out you get back – I think you deserve better.

 

What you call an "evil" act can also be perceived as an opportunity for a new adventure for both parties to embark upon, another equally dazzling and as wonderfully breath taking in its sanctity as the previous bond. Oh, and BTW those bonds you speak of? I know I’ve posted this before but it is relevant right now, I feel. I once knew a wise and courageous young man who had a big impact on my realising the power of conditioning. Amongst the inspiring ideas he shared with me was his notion that time and place have no effect on sacred bonds. I admit it is rare as encountered in my experience, but let me tell you there are indeed couples who “break” their oath and then move ahead taking with them the love and respect of their ex-spouse.

 

wisteria2.gif

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I wonder how much either of you would give to return to your innocence if the opportunity arose, alone, with no external pressure.

 

Wouldn't you like to live in a world where romantic love was as meaningful as you dreamed when you were young? Before you had that dream taken from you? Say what you will about my frustration - mine was not taken from me, for even a moment.

 

This conversation was a rare pleasure; fiery, and it gave us all the possibility to see eachother as we truly were. Make of that what you will.

 

I have nothing more to say on this subject other than this - I will labor to carry that innocent hope to future generations. Those who see me and still have it in their hearts will know it can remain alive and pure, no matter what it has to endure. And one day, because of people like myself, who keep this flag flying, the dream will be a reality, and the innocent will find just reward for their natures.

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I wonder how much either of you would give to return to your innocence if the opportunity arose, alone, with no external pressure.

 

Wouldn't you like to live in a world where romantic love was as meaningful as you dreamed when you were young? Before you had that dream taken from you? Say what you will about my frustration - mine was not taken from me, for even a moment.

 

Yes, it was an invigorating discussion, wasn't it?

 

My world is very different from yours.

 

Perhaps I simply choose to dream another dream now... :P

 

3228302-6-another-dream.jpg

 

 

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Courage or Pride, who can say.
Reading what everyone had to say, I realized I would not necessarily call it courage or pride, but instead my love of a good discussion that caused me to "stab" at the conversation. By the time I got to the end I was very satisfied and also felt like there was nothing left to say.

 

After hearing everyone's thoughts I feel a renewed sense of commitment to my boyfriend, not because of some sense of duty, but because I am just reminded of how much I love him and how good I have it. Thank you for everyone's words.

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Reading what everyone had to say, I realized I would not necessarily call it courage or pride, but instead my love of a good discussion that caused me to "stab" at the conversation. By the time I got to the end I was very satisfied and also felt like there was nothing left to say.

 

After hearing everyone's thoughts I feel a renewed sense of commitment to my boyfriend, not because of some sense of duty, but because I am just reminded of how much I love him and how good I have it. Thank you for everyone's words.

 

 

Aaaaawwwww... that's so nice. Thanks for sharing that. :angel:

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Reading what everyone had to say, I realized I would not necessarily call it courage or pride, but instead my love of a good discussion that caused me to "stab" at the conversation. By the time I got to the end I was very satisfied and also felt like there was nothing left to say.

 

After hearing everyone's thoughts I feel a renewed sense of commitment to my boyfriend, not because of some sense of duty, but because I am just reminded of how much I love him and how good I have it. Thank you for everyone's words.

 

*hugs* :wub:

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I wonder how much either of you would give to return to your innocence if the opportunity arose, alone, with no external pressure.

 

Wouldn't you like to live in a world where romantic love was as meaningful as you dreamed when you were young? Before you had that dream taken from you? Say what you will about my frustration - mine was not taken from me, for even a moment.

 

No return to innocence for me please. What a horrific time of life that was, living in a fantasy creation that was doomed to erosion by aging into reality is not my idea of a good time in life. I still carry some of that immaturity but it does not rule me as it did while a child or young teen. Reality is the important thing, and finding what we can do to change it to be more effective long term for the whole of community.

 

I see so many problems in relationships because of the fantasy concepts of youth.. example: How many women do you know who grew up as Daddy's Princess then suffered for their belief that they must be treated that same way in marriage as an adult, usually by their expected Knight in Shining Armor? Short answer, a lot. How many men grow to believe a wife must attend his needs, cook, clean and pamper him as the breadwinner, then discover as an adult in marriage that their expectations are ludicrous? A lot.

 

So where is the problem? Is it in believing that a youthful belief, hope or desire must be made real or is it in learning as we grow that the things of youth have no place in reality? For me the answer is obvious.

 

Thank you for your patience with me.

 

 

 

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Guest jrayvslang
I realized something today.

 

We all know the economic crisis is for the better - because at the end, we'll come out stronger - but I finally made the connection as to why. How does people losing their jobs, possibly houses, change anything? What does it do?

 

I was having a much-needed talk with my mum today - with Wynter, of course, and my mum mentioned how she had been losing clients and what it meant to her. She said it was because the Universe wanted her to spend more time with herself - reflect inside, figure things out so she could move forward appropriately.

 

It was then I realized! Do you know what I'm going to say? The economic recession is happening because everybody needs to look inside. The Universe is telling us all to look inside and to reflect on our lives, re-evaluate where we're going and why. There's a better path for all of us, and that's why this is happening - so we can make it!

the reason why we have a economic recession is because of greed the main thing that pretty much killed our economy as well as the economy around the world is or energy fuel gas etc bush sold cars and houses on loans and when the gas prices got jacked up no one could pay for there houses and cars

but yes it has made me revaluate myself one of the main reasons i am trying to use my talents to help myself for one plus i know i can use my money from my talents to make other busineses etc create jobs

but this is pretty much mankinds 11th hour as i see it

a global finacial crises that is why despite all the money they pour into this economy it has barely had any affect

but i saw light around sept or after income taxes in the form of a stimulus package but

reguardless they will runn into the same problem everytime the economy gets better gas prices get crazy

it is the greed of those in control that make everyone else have to suffer

but i did see things will get so bad people will be praying alot

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