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Observations of a former psycho - er psychic

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And I believe the fundamental Daoism idealogy is such that as long as you learn the dao and de, and act the same way. You will be awakening you will be filled with the yang in your dan tian, and throughout your body and beyond.

 

uhm...it's a lot more to it than that but I suppose it depends on the path you're on. Recall that way isn't exclusive to Dao, it is just paths of the thunder path are more practiced prominently in the world but its not the only path that suggests such a system

 

That said...the ideology of yang being filled without meditation (or with) is one that is the initial process of the nei gong. But it is complex, well at least in discussion. In practice it is very easy

 

In saying that even high level masters who have literally moved mountains and stopped thunderstorms aren't still ... enlightened. At least according to Wang Liping. In this respect, the notion of enlightenment, the process, and dao is quite the quandary because there is a lot more to it than filling yang, cultivating yin, detaching dan tian, merging yin and yang, bringing yin and yang and finally surpassing the reincarnation cycle.

 

In fact, I suppose that's why dao is so diverse in paths of escaping reincarnation with the dao lao tse practiced being the most mysterious of them all.

 

I mean you can be dao and be a d bag. I've seen it, others have seen it. and have they escaped reincarnation? Yes. Are they still d bags?

 

Absolutely.

 

I am even starting to realize that many people don't want to escape reincarnation, but want to live a better way in cultivating the mind and finding this aspect of peace. Without the fairies, unicorns, angels and overzealous visualization leading to mental attachment amongst other things.

 

But of course, my experience is this.

 

Keep with the system, see very little progress. At least even if you open and be aware that everything is God, and God is good, your life changes immensely. No trying to control elements of your life because they still come. No read addiction trying to know every morsel of the future because it is not necessary. You already have that faith in yourself and God. And ultimately, no faux happiness or positivity. It is natural, it comes from within and people notice!

 

That is the thing I have seen. And frankly seeing the psychic side (meandering on new age philosophy), it sucks. And causes lots of issues. Far more than the reward.

 

Because what is to say that the mind is being cleansed, and the karmic lines are being burned?

 

Again, this endless waltz is beyond ... pedantic

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In saying that even high level masters who have literally moved mountains and stopped thunderstorms aren't still ... enlightened. At least according to Wang Liping. In this respect, the notion of enlightenment, the process, and dao is quite the quandary because there is a lot more to it than filling yang, cultivating yin, detaching dan tian, merging yin and yang, bringing yin and yang and finally surpassing the reincarnation cycle.

 

In fact, I suppose that's why dao is so diverse in paths of escaping reincarnation with the dao lao tse practiced being the most mysterious of them all.

 

That's because we no longer live in and with nature or care about the way as seen in it, but instead, we live surrounded by bogus attempts to conquer it and even re-write it that are bolstered by ideas and showbiz that go in the opposite direction to that of Lao Tzu. There is hardly anything that people are doing today that would lead to the same condition, vision, and understanding as Lao Tzu.

 

I mean you can be dao and be a d bag. I've seen it, others have seen it. and have they escaped reincarnation? Yes. Are they still d bags?

 

Absolutely.

 

That's because the way of the universe and the way people interpret who is and isn't a "d bag" are two entirely different things. The way of the universe is beyond our conceptions of good and evil, and beyond our conceptions of value and worthlessness in general - while seeing people as "d bags" or not totally depends on these relative constructs.

 

I am even starting to realize that many people don't want to escape reincarnation, but want to live a better way in cultivating the mind and finding this aspect of peace. Without the fairies, unicorns, angels and overzealous visualization leading to mental attachment amongst other things.

 

What is the root cause of wanting, in this case, a wanting to live in a better way? Or wanting peace? It's easy to see, as you apparently have, that covering up this initial vision which produced an impetus with "things to do and things to be" is simply a distraction. But it's also disingenuous to then blame the covering you used. The original condition which led to a wanting, and the seeing of that, is where the potential for change is. Once you attempt to leave that original impetus for something "better", you lose sight of its truth.

 

- Sascha

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That's because we no longer live in and with nature or care about the way as seen in it, but instead, we live surrounded by bogus attempts to conquer it and even re-write it that are bolstered by ideas and showbiz that go in the opposite direction to that of Lao Tzu.

 

but then this leads to a question what does it mean to live in nature...there is diversity to reality. Even d bags live in accord with nature. If there is this aspect of living the natural way, it is being open to all. Even the d bags...

 

It also means to be loving. But it doesn't mean you have to like the person if they give you an experience. You just wish them well. I think with humans, we have this unique thing for us. We have this ability to manipulate our surrounding and still live in concord with nature.

 

It's difficult what is nature to many. To a fervent practitioner of the religions that surpass reincarnation, living in nature is two things. Being, and surpassing the human experience by escaping reincarnation. But it is in that where the method to achieve that is diverse. Some will say to live without being with humans, not eating bad things, drinking, and having sex. But we know that isn't true. Because each have not only escaped reincarnation but gained the light body and left this dimension of reality

 

The goal is this. Life is diverse, as well as the definition of living in concord with nature. Because even underlying nature is our own karma, which influences our lives drastically.

 

There is hardly anything that people are doing today that would lead to the same condition, vision, and understanding as Lao Tzu.

 

Again, that's variable. Even the most devout Christian practices Dao. Born agains...not so much. The ironic thing about religion is that if one practices religion with the intent of being open and have a good heart, that's dao! That's buddhist, that's (insert belief here) because at its heart, that's religion.

 

Recall, Jesus only said to be well to your fellow man. Don't pray to me, live better. That is a tie in most religious beliefs. Save from Islam, and well, there are a few reasons for that one...

 

That's because the way of the universe and the way people interpret who is and isn't a "d bag" are two entirely different things. The way of the universe is beyond our conceptions of good and evil, and beyond our conceptions of value and worthlessness in general - while seeing people as "d bags" or not totally depends on these relative constructs.

 

Not disagreeing, but they were d bags. And I think that has been par the course for centuries. Even if it is their destiny to do whatever, the next wave of teachers and masters' emphasize a different doctrine. One that emphasizes creating better humans. Which is a HUGE DEAL these days

 

What is the root cause of wanting, in this case, a wanting to live in a better way? Or wanting peace? It's easy to see, as you apparently have, that covering up this initial vision which produced an impetus with "things to do and things to be" is simply a distraction. But it's also disingenuous to then blame the covering you used. The original condition which led to a wanting, and the seeing of that, is where the potential for change is. Once you attempt to leave that original impetus for something "better", you lose sight of its truth.

 

I think the impetus of wanting to live a better way varies from person to person. In general, the story is the same. Living a certain way, believing a few things, and getting tired of it or not seeing any progress. That impetus is the rush of energy. That energy of change. And that never goes away. In spite of many people being immortal, or escaping reincarnation, that realization is tied into your karma and destiny.

 

It only goes when God takes it away. Otherwise, it keeps going for as long as it is necessary. Plain and simple. So as much as you try to find logic to derive a conclusion, this defies all logic here. It's destiny

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but then this leads to a question what does it mean to live in nature

 

Nature is where "what is", where the natural order, is allowed to function. Today what we have is something artificially arranged according to something entirely other than natural order. Without seeing how natural order functions on its own, it becomes hard to see the difference. Pollution and perversion of nature and beings doesn't eliminate reality, but it does obscure the true observable functioning of the natural order that beings have always had birth-right access to in learning. The destruction of nature and beings is not other than reality, but the nature of it is hard to judge without having access to the natural order of things that has been rearranged and sold as something "good" or "necessary", or even as something "bad".

 

Our intelligence as humans comes from nature, from the overall greater environment, via the natural order. It isn't in our brains, although we use brains to receive and organize information in and about the overall environment (which includes vibrations, even vibrations from very distant events, and in which all events interconnect, and so forth). If our interaction with nature and our direct experience of natural order is only through middle-men who have warped the whole process, we are to a large degree "lost". No amount of speculation or calling everything "natural" will be as useful in the development of human judgement as will the true order of nature from which we have arisen.

 

...there is diversity to reality. Even d bags live in accord with nature. If there is this aspect of living the natural way, it is being open to all. Even the d bags...

 

This seems like confusing "reality" with "nature". They aren't the same thing. Living in accord with reality, in which we may be actively causing conditions where the functioning of natural order is interfered with, warped, and obscured, is not the same as living in accord with nature. So for example, trimming off a tree branch to make the tree "look better" may be happening in reality, but it is not in accord with nature. In fact, this disturbs the expression/action of the order of nature so as to pervert the entire rest of the tree's growth as an expression of nature - which could be rephrased easily as an expression of God. What we may see as a "tree" is actually just a part of a truly huge natural process.

 

- Sascha

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Nature is where "what is", where the natural order, is allowed to function.

 

that's a tautology and not a necessarily good one. If we were to observe natural order, a lot of things are far more cruel. For instance, multiple partners, lots of death and violence, and of course no climate control.

 

If you suggest that even with the modern comforts that have decreased death, emphasized one partner, and lack of climate, be my guest. But that's not my ideal.

 

Today what we have is something artificially arranged according to something entirely other than natural order. Without seeing how natural order functions on its own, it becomes hard to see the difference. Pollution and perversion of nature and beings doesn't eliminate reality, but it does obscure the true observable functioning of the natural order that beings have always had birth-right access to in learning. The destruction of nature and beings is not other than reality, but the nature of it is hard to judge without having access to the natural order of things that has been rearranged and sold as something "good" or "necessary", or even as something "bad".

 

1. Pollution at least can eliminate reality *points to acid rain and its impact on environment and perception of reality, and life*

2. ??? Perversion? I don't get it...

3. So, then, what is the considered natural order to you? Cause if it's above, I think we may have a disagreement

4. Consider this for a moment. If everything is God, and God is good, even this destruction of nature is a part of God and a part of God's plan for aiding karma. You know, just saying...

 

Our intelligence as humans comes from nature, from the overall greater environment, via the natural order.

 

But by saying that neglects the impact, experience, diet, genetics and so on has on what is considered intelligent. I don't think I agree, you know especially considering there is no reality...

 

It isn't in our brains, although we use brains to receive and organize information in and about the overall environment (which includes vibrations, even vibrations from very distant events, and in which all events interconnect, and so forth). If our interaction with nature and our direct experience of natural order is only through middle-men who have warped the whole process, we are to a large degree "lost". No amount of speculation or calling everything "natural" will be as useful in the development of human judgement as will the true order of nature from which we have arisen.

 

I think I finally see what you mean. But I wouldn't consider that nature. I would consider that light of God. And again, it may not be from nature where losing that voice stems as much as it stems from what is considered good and bad experiences. And of course how that affects the mind, and as a result affects our behavior in a variety of different settings.

 

As much as you say it isn't our brain, it is. The break is indicated through the physiology of the brain in a lot of different ways. It's actually quite alarming

 

 

This seems like confusing "reality" with "nature". They aren't the same thing. Living in accord with reality, in which we may be actively causing conditions where the functioning of natural order is interfered with, warped, and obscured, is not the same as living in accord with nature.

 

Actually it is. Considering we are coming from different contexts. As much as (I can assume) you revile this concept, if such a warp was not meant to happen it never would happen. Never. So in that, the warping of nature is actually quite natural and occurs in nature more often than you think. That in itself affects perception of material reality. And even if you hate it, it is also good. Because it is God and deeply a part of our karma if/when we experience that occurring.

 

So for example, trimming off a tree branch to make the tree "look better" may be happening in reality, but it is not in accord with nature.

 

So when a beaver does this to create a damn, a bird to create a nest, that is...in accord with nature? I mean realistically I hope you realize this happens a lot more than you think even on a microscopic level in so many ways it isn't even funny.

 

And yet, I do understand your rationale. You are referring to the extremes that impact nature. But to negate that such an aspect takes us away from nature by negatively affecting our reality is something I can't necessarily agree with.

 

That also goes in vein with the argument that medicine is bad and so on. But the cyclic irony is that even the alternative medicine has disastrous affects on a person especially considering not every person is the same. They both can be good and bad. And I think that is one good point about all things

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I think what sascha is referring to as the "natural" way is what Lao tse refers as "do nothing" (I dunno how it is translated in English)? and see how doing exactly nothing (actually, I have trouble understanding that part in Tao te jing, but I suppose you know what I'm talking about, hopefully) will shape the world.

 

You guys both know so much :blink:

 

Also, you guys mentioned some daos who were d bags, were they people in history? Care to throw out some names? B)

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that's a tautology and not a necessarily good one. If we were to observe natural order, a lot of things are far more cruel. For instance, multiple partners, lots of death and violence, and of course no climate control.

 

Actually, I never said anything about any standard of deciding what is cruel or not. Natural order is just that - the order of nature.

 

Lots of death and violence? Are you aware that there are no cave paintings of war or murder? Such things only appear once civilization is organized against the natural order.

 

If you suggest that even with the modern comforts that have decreased death, emphasized one partner, and lack of climate, be my guest. But that's not my ideal.

 

Iatrogenic (doctor/medicine caused) harm is the #1 cause of death today. Iatrogenesis is under-reported, for obvious reasons, and is actually listed in sources like Wikipedia as the #3 cause of death behind cancer and heart disease - both of which are side-effects of "modern comforts".

 

2. ??? Perversion? I don't get it...

 

Perversion of natural order as in dumping massive amounts of synthetic chemical compounds into the environment that have hormone-interrupting effects - which cause, for example, alligators that have sex organs of both sexes, or frogs that have no sex organs, and which change the behavior of migratory birds in ways that cause them to not mate, and/or mis-navigate and die. Humans introduced this without regard for the natural order, and for reasons that have nothing to do with, and are possibly in outright contempt of, natural order.

 

4. Consider this for a moment. If everything is God, and God is good, even this destruction of nature is a part of God and a part of God's plan for aiding karma. You know, just saying...

 

God is beyond good and bad. I myself do not care what is good and what is bad. I only observe what things actually are and act accordingly. The natural order of things is God's order. Man's going against that is producing a lot of destruction and confusion. These things are just observable reality. The ability to discern the true natural order of things from something that goes against God's logic (the logos) is called "judgement". Development of free and comprehensive judgement is a birthright of humanity.

 

But by saying that neglects the impact, experience, diet, genetics and so on has on what is considered intelligent. I don't think I agree, you know especially considering there is no reality...

 

But all such "impact, experience, diet, and genetics" all arise from "nature, from the overall greater environment, via the natural order" that I wrote about.

 

So when a beaver does this to create a damn, a bird to create a nest, that is...in accord with nature?

 

Beavers do not do the same things as a tree-pruning person. Neither do birds. In fact, their actions are highly intelligent and not abstract. I know, I grew up in a wild forest and watched such things for years and years. Since I've been "out of the woods" I have watched landscapers and gardeners very closely too. There is no comparison. Whereas animals are clearly and definitely (except where damaged, altered, or introduced out of order by human activity) arising from and existing within the order of what people now call "eco-systems" and the overall "bioshpere", and their populations and actions happen in a complex interrelationship and balance with these (but not necessarily with human purposes) - a human rarely (if ever) cuts a branch or plants a row of corn with the same sense. The "biosphere" (not to mention the "cosmos") is complex beyond the supposed science and comprehension of mankind, who not long ago were killing and imprisoning people for realizing that the Sun did not rotate around the Earth. Most intact animals are existing within these "eco-systems" intuitively and with the natural order. Man has set about to deny and conquer nature, and is shaping it for abstract purposes that barely acknowledge (and/or actively deny) reality at the root of their motivations.

 

That also goes in vein with the argument that medicine is bad and so on. But the cyclic irony is that even the alternative medicine has disastrous affects on a person especially considering not every person is the same. They both can be good and bad. And I think that is one good point about all things

 

The natural order is health, not any form of medicine. Ants, coyotes, squirrels, hawks, chipmunks and so many other beings never use any form of medicine whatsoever, but simply and humbly (and intuitively) follow according to the natural order from which their existence arises. This is what Lao Tzu came to understand. Civilization, however, seeks to go against, defy, and "conquer" nature - and thereby develops illness on top of illness and medicine on top of medicine.

 

- Sascha

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the elusive chapter 48 of the tao te ching. I am a bit lucky in that both comments seem to correlate with that chapter as well as provide a means as to the stance I've taken. That being, as much as sascha has indicated his disdain for advances that take away from what he feels is the natural order, this is not the order that lao tzu is referring to; nor is any immortal in their respected writing or teaching. In fact, the natural order is an inclination to allow everything to happen because when you are practicing the way, you are separating yourself further and further away from human affairs and events and living a hermetic life. In that end, that is the natural order of tao.

 

To indicate this, let's pull up that verse in question:

 

[1]In the pursuit of learning, every day something is acquired. In the pursurit of tao, every day something is dropped

[2]Less and less is done until non-action is achieved. When nothing is done, nothing is left undone

[3]The world is ruled by letting things take their course. It cannot be ruled by interfering

 

Point one is extremely important, at least to me for a few reasons. Ledi Sayadaw, another very enlightened immortal, indicated in his writing that there lies two forms of truth (knowledge): relative truth [sammuti sacca] (or acquired truth through education) and paramattha sacca [absolute truth]. In most situations of understanding human life, it is relative truth that is enough for much of our lives, especially in bearing witness of the material world. And yet, there is the absolute and permanent truth. If I were to make any argument at this point, it is this. The permanent truth is the natural order of reality and the universe, and that is something very few of us truly understands and is governed by God.

 

In the sense of point one, we do learn a lot. We don't have a choice and that's been established since antiquity in both senses of eastern and western anthropology. However, in this sense, the knowledge we acquire through education is dropped when you begin to walk the paths of way (whether it be dao in nature or buddhist in nature). I am a learned guy and I have learned a lot in the short amount of time I've lived (med school transition to clinical psychology, and of course philosophy and computer programming as well). I am not expert in any means, but I do know that as I began to meditate, the knowledge acquired from my experiences began to synthesize with the ways of the past. And actions that I initially performed (even something as simple as lying) I didn't perform much anymore.

 

Even I was very negative on the medical health care system. But I didn't complain or revile it. I began to change it through my research and learn it. In this, I will never agree that the post industrialized society is completely negative, but it performs a necessary need for people who are and who are not on the path of way. Ultimately, to any of the immortals of past and present, the road one is being led to isn't one of the people, it is one of hermeticism. In this, the natural order of such things don't care about the planet, nor is it emphasized on the impacts global destruction has on the planet. There is only one thing that is cared about honestly. Meditation and cultivation.

 

That's it. So the argument that this is against Lao Tzu's way of enlightenment would be considered polluting the Tao and placing your own agenda where it doesn't belong. Which is fine, because it is what we do. But it is certainly not Tao.

 

Point 2 further clarifies the path that a person takes toward hermeticism and observation. As one meditates, or even truly relaxes, you begin to sense the energy of nature. Specifically, how days will unfold, expectations of it, and how to remain balanced in spite of living a life with other people. Initially, you will be receptive of the energy of nature and yield, but you tend to relax and be with it. This principle in and of itself forms a large basis of tai chi chuan as a martial art to yield forces of attack and minimizes expenditure of energy. This is also applicable to our lives. Granted things happen and it sucks. The more we try to meddle and control that action to stop it, the more and more chaos it causes because it is against the natural way.

 

Consider this. Ever see a mud puddle? It is heterogeneously mixture of water and of course dirt (we hope it's dirt of course). Now try to rid that puddle of dirt without removing the water. One could try to stir the puddle mixing it and making it worse. Or, you can actually let the puddle be and observe the events. The puddle clears itself. That is life! No secret and hidden messages there. You don't meddle, rather you shouldn't meddle.

 

But that goes against the natural way of humans. We want to move and we love to meddle to understand things. Which that too is fine. Actually, it is highly recommended by other immortals (Ledi Sayadaw indicates this in the first ten pages of his book actually). What isn't okay is meddling and not following the way. And that way is meditation. In time, the person starts to observe and meddle less. Knowledge wanes because the mind transitions to one truth - the absolute truth. Or, to sit and live in balanced and in total relaxation. Not to yield energy, but to be with it.

 

That also includes the changes to nature =)

 

Point three is also explained above. That's about it. If anything, there is de-emphasis on what is occurring, what is happening outside and more reverence on what is occurring within. And that is the transformation. Frankly, to a taoist, no one cares about material reality because it isn't real. There is a striving to go beyond the material and enter true bliss.

 

Sadly I don't think we will agree sascha because you have your agenda, which again is fine. But I do enjoy hearing your thoughts on things ebcause they remind me of my own at one point in my life. I am hopeful that at one point you begin the path as well and realize both the good and bad of things. That in spite of this occurring, it is also very good and has helped people.

 

Taichi, it doesn't necessarily mean do nothing per se. It means to retreat and observe while you sit. And even then you can be an active participant in life. As long as you realize the goal is to surpass this world. This life, and to do so you sit.

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Taichi, it doesn't necessarily mean do nothing per se. It means to retreat and observe while you sit. And even then you can be an active participant in life. As long as you realize the goal is to surpass this world. This life, and to do so you sit.

 

That was a great read! I think it'll help me in terms of understanding Tao te jing as well.

Now I'm interested in your thoughts on synthesizing your experience with ways of the past.

 

I'm an eng turned to computer programming, to me it seems like all aspects of engineering arise from the natural way, that is how so many concepts can simply be transferred from one decipline to another with only a few substitution of the nouns.

 

However, to me, computer programming is something that was a result of a natural progression, but it allows us to do unnatural things such as creating a virtual world and we get to define however it will progress.

 

So I'm curious, what are your thoughts on using such a technology and synthesizing it with, I suppose what we call "the natural" way, or the ways of the past? Because it seems to be going towards the scary end with the smartphones, internet, privacy tracking, eye goggles etc.

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What is reality but an area that is simply a hologram used for the ultimate purpose of learning?

 

I enjoy computers and anything technological and I have observed aspect of biomodding specifically with keen interest because it pushes humanity to a level that could change the evolution of our species toward a unique end. That said, integrating the use of technology into the ways of the past are similar to me integrating the philosophy of the past in my clinical sessions, or in my previous support jobs or tutoring positions. When you start to walk the path, you naturally integrate absolute truth in your life and it only augments the skills and expertise you already bring. In addition, it also aids in easing the stress and tension you may have with undergoing the myriad changes within any industry.

 

Do I think technology can lead to easier methods of achieving the levels of the past? Yes and no. Yes because in theory one can use technology to aid in relaxation, but it can also create an attachment. That's something that many try to get rid of.

 

I bought my sister an ipad last year (ipad 2 actually when it first came out). And I noticed recently she was using a brain wave generator to sleep. So I asked, has it improved your sleep? She said she thought it did, and continued to say there was no way she could sleep without it. Take note of the example for a variety of different reasons. You need to have a brain wave generator to sleep indicates a mental attachment when one isn't necessary. The perceived belief of relaxation is what creates the attachment. And yet, it doesn't beat good old fashioned relaxation!

 

In this path, you don't go super far without understanding attachment and karma. We have our own karmas to burn to that are interrelated in our attachments. Making progress is also indicative of burning the karma and not being attached to things. It's okay to like things, and crave things as well. But understand that these are different manifestations of energy in the body. In many ways you don't have to give in fully leading to attachment. Just observe and be.

 

When you can do that, you can honestly say you are living.

 

So I guess the answer is a catch 22 as I am holding a HTC One X. Do I like the phone? Sure. Am I attached to the phone? Nope. If I have to get rid of it, I do so. Because ultimately it is inconsequential to the grand scheme of way.

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That being, as much as sascha has indicated his disdain for advances that take away from what he feels is the natural order, this is not the order that lao tzu is referring to; nor is any immortal in their respected writing or teaching. In fact, the natural order is an inclination to allow everything to happen because when you are practicing the way, you are separating yourself further and further away from human affairs and events and living a hermetic life. In that end, that is the natural order of tao.

 

I clearly stated that I have no "disdain" for anything. I have merely been writing observations. I welcome anyone to disagree or add interpretation, but I truly have no "stance".

 

The natural order is not "an inclination to allow everything to happen". That is only one way of approaching the natural order. In any event nobody can practice "The Way" any more than any of us can "practice" the "way" the Sun shines. None of us humans can be "separated" from human affairs - we are one of such affairs.

 

Consider this. Ever see a mud puddle? It is heterogeneously mixture of water and of course dirt (we hope it's dirt of course). Now try to rid that puddle of dirt without removing the water. One could try to stir the puddle mixing it and making it worse. Or, you can actually let the puddle be and observe the events. The puddle clears itself. That is life! No secret and hidden messages there. You don't meddle, rather you shouldn't meddle.

 

But that goes against the natural way of humans. We want to move and we love to meddle to understand things.

 

Do we? Humans did not always do such things. They didn't originally alter the ground with agriculture and artificial populations, didn't originally have warare, and had only the simplest "technology". There is an inverse relationship between functionality and technology, and technology is always a sign of a lack or loss of functionality. Originally with humans, this was very little.

 

In time, the person starts to observe and meddle less. Knowledge wanes because the mind transitions to one truth - the absolute truth.

 

This is the opposite of modern technology and "progress". And this is surrender to the order of nature, the order of God. What is the "absolute truth" if not the order of God, from and within which the order of nature arises?

 

Frankly, to a taoist, no one cares about material reality because it isn't real. There is a striving to go beyond the material and enter true bliss.

 

The root of this is true understanding of the scope of physicalization/dephysicalization, not the ignoring of one part of it. You can't transcend or "go beyond" something you ignore, deny, or aren't truly aware of in the first place.

 

Sadly I don't think we will agree sascha because you have your agenda, which again is fine.

 

My only agenda is to participate in this interesting dialog. The observations I write about are simply my observations, and my responses thus to various ideas in the discussion.

 

- Sascha

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Sadly I don't think we will agree sascha because you have your agenda, which again is fine. But I do enjoy hearing your thoughts on things ebcause they remind me of my own at one point in my life. I am hopeful that at one point you begin the path as well and realize both the good and bad of things. That in spite of this occurring, it is also very good and has helped people.

 

 

You may not mean to but you sound a little arrogant here... this is a discussion. Each is entitled to his perception and until we know THE REAL TRUTH (If we ever will) no one can claim to be right.

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Guest Moopurple

Honestly, I've been having a hard time trying to figure out what this thread is about. Are you trying to offer your advice on what you see as the correct path to follow in life?

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Honestly, I've been having a hard time trying to figure out what this thread is about. Are you trying to offer your advice on what you see as the correct path to follow in life?

 

Well, it seems that Noir originally started this thread by claiming that psychic phenomena was a "system", then railed against that "system" as if it were a defective consumer product that he had a hard time getting any satisfaction from in his apparent search for well-being. The more recent part of the thread seems to consist of Noir's various interpretations of Taoism as a "system" of meditation that has certain "goals" that can be "pursued", in which un-named people (probably not people on this forum) were called "d-bags", rather than being simply descriptive (as the Tao Te Ching and I Ching certainly are) about the Way (the Tao) itself. I have responded to these things with observations from experience, which effort seems to have been rebuffed as mere trifling. The whole of it has surely been all in fun, and I hope everyone is enjoying it as much as the more active participants seem to be.

 

- Sascha

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sorry for the lack of posting I had to cover an event in Chicago and had some fantastic fun with Fujitsu, Dell, HP, and Lenovo for new Windows 8 products. Very fun time to be had.

 

But nevertheless it is time to respond. To preface, I want to kill this human nature thing first immediately. One thing I only touched on is the role that karma has on our lives. I've mentioned it in some ways, but even I forgot it in the sense of this conversation especially in terms of human nature. Sufficed to say is this - there's no such thing as a consensual human nature (natural order). The entire notion that we are not supposed to be sick, healthy organisms and so on is (and pardon my language) a crock of bull. I say this for a variety of different reasons. One of which is from the people I've met. They are extremely powerful men and have escaped the circle of reincarnation (and thus become immortal). And yet, at the top of this mountain, does this mean that people are invulnerable? No. Does it mean that a person doesn't get sick? No. Johm Chang gets sick. My teachers (who have achieved this level of nei gong) still get sick. They still get tired and don't want to do things. They eat, drink and smoke like anyone else (include having sex). My point in listing these anecdotes is that they still live the human experience, just like everyone else.

 

One thing that is latent in knowledge of spirituality is this emphasis that a person becomes this meek and all loving being. Absolutely NOT! Nothing could be further from the truth! Hence the point being, you have high level masters who have the social graces of a neanderthal man (and it is no disrespect to their high level because they can kill with just a finger being raised). But again, it is the human experience. And in that human experience, the driving force behind behavior is not necessarily dictated by choice. It is dictated by our karma, our ming, whatever you want to call it at this point. It is the sum of your family's burden's and your own burdens in this sense of reality that is truly the drive of your experience. Whether you have the drive to become a doctor, a nurse, a clinician, drink, become a stripper, porn star, and so on - that's karma.

 

Paradoxically, this presents a very un-western attitude in that this aspect that ultimately we have no choice in the matters at hand. At least, in the sense of rational thought and philosophy that permeated the West post 13th century. But again, that's your nit pick. And that's fine if you disagree. For a long time, I did too because it is a very tough pill to swallow. But you must think of something in this way: You'd rather believe in unicorns and fairies, and not that the drive toward what we do is to burn the karmas we have accumulated for several lives leading to an ultimate cleanse and better living no matter whether you reincarnate or not? Yeah. Talk about making sense of that one...

 

And yet, with that said, much like all things, one shouldn't necessarily go into this extreme apathy because of it. The reality is you shouldn't be apathetic that you have no choice in experiencing some things. There shouldn't be this point to where you wait for things to happen to you and argue you have no choice. We are humans and animals of movement - we move toward the experience. But we do so with the trust that all is God and God is good. In that simple understanding, you lose a lot of the things you once held to be routinal for us. The eager to know about the future leaves, because it is unnecessary. You are already full with the trust and love of God. Fill me, oh lord with thy desire, for all that know not thee.

 

The above point is a unique one. In spite of karma changing the cyclic drive and underlie beliefs, human nature, and experience, we still have a natural voice. The reforming of the natural voice is cyclically related to the conscious mind and serves as the primary process of spiritual enlightenment especially in yang shen dao and other beliefs that work on mental purification. Is it ironic that I take this stance? Sure it is - how can a guy say that human nature is karma, and then say we have a consensual voice? We sort of do. The voice is one of balance, not necessarily one of innocence. In this, it is huge to speak from the heart and let go of the emotional balance to reunite the disparate consciousness and lead to the initial process of spiritual awakening (foundational practice). Many schools have different ways of doing it, and I have my own way given to me from various different Chinese practices. Kosta Danaos, author of the Magus of Java, indicates that the point in which we are fully open is indescribable. However, there are some similarities that he has noted and I can definitely agree with:

 

1. Orientation of the spine - it's extremely erect. The spine is important in actually most major religious belief systems and medical systems. Western or Eastern, the spine is key

2. Balanced - the balance here is one based on mental, emotional and energetic balance. Yin/yang, prana/apana, whatever system you use, the individual is balanced. That much I can say

 

There are a few others for the purpose of finding other high level teachers, but those two are good enough in terms of the driving point. There are a lot of ways to reunite the conscious mind, heal oneself from extreme psychological disorders and damaging experiences leading to changes in body and mind, but typically the teachers of those methods have those two things. No matter what age, no matter what ethnicity, those two things stick out in my mind above all others.

 

From this point, there are two unique thoughts that are latent - emphasis on karma being a driving force of human nature (natural order) and an actual natural voice. One other thing that seems to be a nagging thread is the emphasis of material reality and the meaningful and meaninglessness. I am reminded of a very high level Indian master from the 20th century (yes that is not a typo) and a story one of his disciples told and wrote in a book. In it he said he was very hungry after a deep meditation. But the only thing around them was rotting flesh and trash. With a wave of his hand, the rotting flesh became the most beautiful and large meal that the disciple had ever seen. Similarly, my teacher's master would hold events for scientists to investigate his abilities. He projected his energy and for days the scientists would only taste his sweet energy. The bible indicates a similar story of Jesus performing both of these feats in a massive way. Well, what's the point here?

 

Reality is mind and that's all it really is. Deeper levels of many different philosophies attest to the nature of reality being actually quite unreal (I believe Bohm also indicated a similar conclusion in the holographic universe theory as well as other prominent quantum physicists). It's all energy and in many ways, there shouldn't be such care about it. However, in terms of diet, you want to have things that are rich in energy. IN terms of what occurs, those are affairs that really don't phase me because it isn't my karma to be phased by them. Specifically, this note is for Sascha. If it is your karma to become an eco activist to research the negative aspects of many things in terms of technology, that's perfectly brilliant actually. It's something I've done in the short life I've lived. But I also know that understanding the other side (the medical and technical side) is extremely important to promote a balanced agenda.

 

A few years ago, I would've reviled at the idea of me, as a clinical psychologist, would administer medication. However, there are some cases that it is necessary. Is it meant to be forever? Not necessarily. No medication (alternative, western, eastern) is meant to be forever. But the point is this. I beg you. Understand the balance. Study it, understand it. Then lobby it - if that is your karma that is.

 

Now to address a few other things

 

You may not mean to but you sound a little arrogant here... this is a discussion. Each is entitled to his perception and until we know THE REAL TRUTH (If we ever will) no one can claim to be right.

 

I'm actually quite disappointed here. As I read the quote in question a million times today, I am at a bit of a loss. I don't think the point here is that we do disagree (in fact I like a fun disagreement as long as we still stay on topic - its how I taught my students, it's how I help clients, and so on).

 

So let me see if I grab this - the notion here, that I wish someone to have balance, see both good and bad, is arrogant? Or is it the intonation that how dare I say I have found a perspective (an observation if you will) that contradicts your own?

 

Do you know the story of that quote? Doubtful, but to make a long story short, someone very close to me told me that as she was months away from dying. You may have known her (Rafiala in the room), and she told me those words on my birthday. Not one of my favorite birthdays because of things that occurred but it is what it is. Nevertheless, the wish of someone well is arrogant? Fascinating.

 

But even more fascinating is the second question - the intonation that I demand that there is a truth? That somehow this leads to arrogance. To this, my former teacher, I say this:

 

So what?

 

Afraid of the big bad boogie man known as arrogance? We're human. We're arrogant, we are prideful. That is something I don't deny anymore. In fact, to argue a sense of being while denying aspects that are a part of the gamut of emotions and feelings that make us human is silly. Not because denying what is considered bad is stupid, but leads to a person not being open and blocks their heart. The teachings I have are similar to that of Mahayana Buddhism that stresses love and heart above many things. It also stresses acceptance. So what if I do come off as arrogant to you?

 

To that I offer a counterpoint:

 

If our experience is karma, and material reality is mind, what cobwebs are you hiding from to project such a thing where there wasn't any arrogant intent derived? Interesting question eh =)

 

Of course, let's spin this bottle another way shall we?

 

REAL TRUTH? Ya know, that threw me for a bit. But then, there is no "truth" beyond perception, I'm sure you know that. But there is consensus correct that drive truth, theory, and even verifiable fact that such events occur and lead to some transformation. The question is where? It's actually closer than you think.

 

Actually, pick up the bible. Then pick up the tao te ching. Pick up a study on Eastern tradition and folktales of immortals (such as the guide to oriental classics by Theodore deBary or Sources of Chinese Tradition), The ling bao, the secrets of the Golden Flower (cleary translation). The list of books can go on and on and on. But there is a point. There isn't one truth, but there surely is a consensus for an individual on the path of surpassing reincarnation that has been recorded for thousands of years extant in several different belief systems.

 

When there is a consensus, of course, well it's somewhat closer to something that is true. You know, without the experience of someone who has already performed the processes.

 

So what is real truth? I wouldn't have the foggiest idea of what happens in some ways. But what I do know is this - errant visualization of matters going away, wrapping things around a pink light and a happy bow with a tie is not a truth of mine. Not because it isn't bad, but because it doesn't work. But again, ymmv =)

 

Which ironically brings us back to what's the point. Which is quite simple

 

In our quest to become better people, truly better, we go through several hoops and things that aren't necessary. Better can so much simpler in fact! Give with your heart, be free and express what's in your heart. Be ready to experience both good and bad, because at its heart, those aspects are merely means of our mind to categorize our experiences in this world. It's amazing how much that would do rather than visualize a mantra of being happy.

 

However, that doesn't necessarily explain what's going on. Conscious development. Any THING deemed psychic, is conscious development. But it isn't the end all be all. There is a glorious world out there with people that can truly help you cultivate your conscious. The famed white light, becomes something you see in days or weeks. The further refining of the mind so it affects the body, well that too happens. The world that we read about in all of the famoous religious texts or philosophical texts is still practiced. Alive, and well. So, why do you think you need to go about it this way where you may more to lose?

 

I am not trying to sell some product in these words or incite some division between those who have experience such a thing versus those who have not. But I am trying to report some of my observations that I have endured and experienced in this time of being psychic and eventually not being psychic. The abilities don't stop; they are apart of your karmic stock. But the main difference is this. Instead of fumbling and keeping attached to some thing, person, or belief, your view of reality does change. And it isn't fake or full of condescending tone. It is bonafide progress that begins to transform you inside out.

 

Aren't you tired of being addicted for the read fix to know when to poop, or visualizing something to get rid of the big bad negative entity that your mind creates? Let's drop the facade. It's old, it stymies us. Let's return back to the way and embrace the true light of transformation of reality.

 

Be well

 

That is the point. Post number one =)

 

A call for a conscious revolution. Get rid of the overzealousness and get back to bonafide progress.

 

That is, if it is your karma...

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Sufficed to say is this - there's no such thing as a consensual human nature (natural order).

 

Natural order, as used in this thread by me, has nothing to do with that use of the idea of human consent or "human nature". What people do or do not want to do is not where the order of nature (natural order) arises.

 

The entire notion that we are not supposed to be sick, healthy organisms and so on is (and pardon my language) a crock of bull. I say this for a variety of different reasons. One of which is from the people I've met. They are extremely powerful men and have escaped the circle of reincarnation (and thus become immortal). And yet, at the top of this mountain, does this mean that people are invulnerable? No. Does it mean that a person doesn't get sick? No. Johm Chang gets sick. My teachers (who have achieved this level of nei gong) still get sick. They still get tired and don't want to do things.

 

Then they are less functional and wise than a chipmunk or a snail in the forest.

 

The natural state of being is health.

 

Have you ever spent any extended time in the wilderness around wild animals?

 

They eat, drink and smoke like anyone else (include having sex). My point in listing these anecdotes is that they still live the human experience, just like everyone else.

 

Human beings, as conceived in nature, are capable of having the true "human experience". I'm not so sure that what is going on now in civilization is actually "human" experience. It's something else. Something like the way a lab rat's existence is not really the natural and real "rat experience".

 

One thing that is latent in knowledge of spirituality is this emphasis that a person becomes this meek and all loving being. Absolutely NOT! Nothing could be further from the truth! Hence the point being, you have high level masters who have the social graces of a neanderthal man (and it is no disrespect to their high level because they can kill with just a finger being raised). But again, it is the human experience. And in that human experience, the driving force behind behavior is not necessarily dictated by choice. It is dictated by our karma, our ming, whatever you want to call it at this point. It is the sum of your family's burden's and your own burdens in this sense of reality that is truly the drive of your experience. Whether you have the drive to become a doctor, a nurse, a clinician, drink, become a stripper, porn star, and so on - that's karma.

 

"Karma" is just yin and yang. When something becomes one way, it will then go the other. "Gravity" is "karma". This simple observation of phenomena has been elaborated and abstracted so much by modern people that it is barely recognizable.

 

Specifically, this note is for Sascha. If it is your karma to become an eco activist to research the negative aspects of many things in terms of technology, that's perfectly brilliant actually. It's something I've done in the short life I've lived. But I also know that understanding the other side (the medical and technical side) is extremely important to promote a balanced agenda.

 

In response to that - I'm not really trying to or going to "become" anything, much less an "eco activist". I'm only writing from experience, which does include rather prolonged and detailed study of what is to you "the other side" (the medical and technical side). I just look at stuff on and as all sides without categorization. My posts in this thread show what I thought and wrote.

 

I'm actually quite disappointed here. As I read the quote in question a million times today, I am at a bit of a loss.

 

I completely believe you.

 

- Sascha

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So, I am going to be honest here. I read your opening post, but then the rest of the discussion....I essentially skimmed through. I may have missed some good things, and maybe I'll ask some questions you've already answered, so please forgive me.

 

However, for whatever reason I had a very strong inclination to thoroughly review your most recent post. And I am utterly fascinated. And hope that you will be kind enough to tell me more.

 

My biggest question: you keep mentioning "karma." Instead of assuming I know what you mean, I thought I would just ask. What do you mean by that word? What is karma? What do you do with it? Are we suppose to "transcend" it? What does transcending karma mean? What does it look like?

 

These immortal people that you met, they live a human experience, get hungry, sick and tired. But can also point a finger at someone to kill them?

 

In considering this, an answer of sorts came to me. "They have to meet us on our level." That, we couldn't even possibly conceive them otherwise. They are just too far beyond our limitations that we could only interact with them if they limit themselves for us. And that is...love if I've ever known what that word meant.

 

There is so much going on inside of me right now, it feels so good and so bad, so pleasurable and so painful. But I know to just go with it.

 

 

:lol: <--- I think this is my face right now!

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That is, if it is your karma...

I no longer believe in past life karma so the notion that it holds sway over my life has become irrelevant to me. What I perceived as "arrogance" was not about your beliefs being in contradiction to mine but the undercurrent that seemed to suggest that your way is the right way, and that you hold the answer for everyone.

 

It doesn't matter if I am the only person in the world that believes the things I now do. In the words of Sir Thomas More, "What matters is not that it's true, but that I believe it; or no, not that I believe it, but that I believe it."

 

 

Like Sascha I believe that the natural state of being is health, and like many others I also believe that ritual can be a powerful healer and mover. But this is my path, the one I choose with every decision I make and it is not for me to say that it would suit everyone, but for now I am content with the journey I am on.

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I no longer believe in past life karma so the notion that it holds sway over my life has become irrelevant to me. What I perceived as "arrogance" was not about your beliefs being in contradiction to mine but the undercurrent that seemed to suggest that your way is the right way, and that you hold the answer for everyone.

 

It doesn't matter if I am the only person in the world that believes the things I now do. In the words of Sir Thomas More, "What matters is not that it's true, but that I believe it; or no, not that I believe it, but that I believe it."

 

 

Like Sascha I believe that the natural state of being is health, and like many others I also believe that ritual can be a powerful healer and mover. But this is my path, the one I choose with every decision I make and it is not for me to say that it would suit everyone, but for now I am content with the journey I am on.

 

I gotta say though, it's very easy to misintreprete confidence as arrogance on the Internet

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I no longer believe in past life karma so the notion that it holds sway over my life has become irrelevant to me.

 

It seems to me that the concept of "karma" has become confused, sentimentalized, and overly elaborated on. If we examine karma simply as an interplay of complimentary opposites, and do that with a practical and simple mind, not a "mystical" one, I believe that we may approach something more like the original concept.

 

One example: Let's say we have a rock on the ground. We pick it up. In this, we are "creating karma". This "karma" can lead the rock in only one direction when we let it go. Down.

 

Another example: It is said that if we eat the flesh of an animal, we will be reincarnated as that animal 10,000 times. Looking at this practically and simply and without any "mystical" elaboration, we can see by experience that eating the flesh of an animal will and does deeply influence our physicality and mentality. You can prove this to yourself by fasting and then eating some animal meat. If we look at the idea of "reincarnate" as also meaning being "born", we can infer that we are "being reborn" daily. 10,000 days is about 27 years - about 3 times the duration that it takes to replace most body cells. This is how long they estimated that it will take for the animal influence on your cells to dissipate or be eliminated.

 

That is just two examples of the ways in which this concept can be applied.

 

This is a different way of looking at "karma" than is popular today, but I feel it is more accurate to the original concept, and leads to a very practical way of applying this concept of "karma".

 

- Sascha

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Oh karma, seems you have done yourself a good thing ol' gal

 

Karma is not just yin and yang. To say that denotes some further explanation almost immediately (as well as some disrespect of culture's traditions and teachings - which in its place is a bad thing). That said...

 

Within our world, there are constants, no matter time or space or even planet. One constant is the body; being seen as a "lower" level in terms of spiritual hierarchy (won't get into the details unless you want a very long diatribe of life according to tao and vajra traditions), an intermediate level that drives many processes, and the conscious mind that serves as the primary gateway of many experiences in material reality. However, that doesn't explain everything about reality. Why do we meet good person A or bad person B?

 

Karma.

 

It is a living, breathing entity underlying reality composed of the total sum of our past goods and our past bads that ultimately leads to God giving humanity the good ol' second (or multiple) try. In this, karma drives a lot in terms of tradition. In the past, it was karma to determine whether an individual would escape reincarnation and lead the lineage for new practitioners. It's also karma that dictates condition of health and status in this world. The most extreme argument is that every experience an individual has is due to a karma of past and present.

 

No soul mates here or twin soul beliefs here (even though they can be relevant in a theoretical discourse, I've not heard of it coming up in the beliefs but open to it). Each action, each experience is punctuated by timing and seasons. Much of the planning is karma.

 

One of my teachers told me (during my very first lesson) that much of reality we don't have a choice in matters (as indicated above). Karma does dictate everything, including drive and inclination toward things and experiences.

 

Yin and yang is a completely different, yet similar bag of tea in that yin and yang do create what we see and how we see it. Especially in terms of development. But it isn't karma. Yin and yang is a distinct aspect of reality to which I really only know the descriptions according to manisfestations of energy in and out of the body (frankly I should know that). Granted, I Ching binds it to everything without exclusion, but in terms of karma, there's a deisgnation.

 

In terms of human nature and experience, again karma. Not every experience, not every nature is the same nor will it ever be. Are there some aspects that overlap at times? You betcha! So many can learn from it and burn the connection an indivdiual has. The ultimate goal of both tao and buddhist traditions (at least the esoteric ones that escape reincarnation) is to burn the threads of karma you have to others to free your heart and continue your personal evolution. This path is again one of detachment. But it doesn't mean that an individual rises above the human experience. Unless they're a level 72, initiate the light body and yada yada yada. It's been written in Buddhist texts before. Take a read of it. It's actually quite enlightening (pardon the pun).

 

I think a consistent aspect of humanity is in spite of the myriad changes throughout time, unfortunately we as a species have not changed. It is sad, but also quite fascinating to push the boundary of technological evolution but still have the social graces of a dust mite. Sad...But in the grand scheme of things, a very good thing.

 

These immortal people that you met, they live a human experience, get hungry, sick and tired. But can also point a finger at someone to kill them?

 

Cultural interpretation. While many have beliefs against such a thing, I won't be idealistic to say someone who has bound yin and yang and escaped reincarnation hasn't killed or been affiliated with people who have killed and conquered. Burden of the beast. This is the path of power. Emphasis on opening mind and heart is a drastic turn from the power aspect of it all.

 

In considering this, an answer of sorts came to me. "They have to meet us on our level."

 

More like, we have to meet them at their level. Some masters and teachers are extremely helpful. Others not so much. Others have been burned due to meddling of the west and what one calls it raping our traditions. But again that is the diversity of it all. I mean Wang liping is extremely approachable in that he holds several seminars to teach westerners nei gong and meditation. Not everyone is like Wang of course, but he is respected for what he has contributed to a relatively large growing group of people who want to study Eastern concepts in the West.

 

One lesson I learned is that in order to meet a master at a high level you must be able to be in stillness for 2 hours. It's not an easy feat...lol. AT ALL.

 

And that is...love if I've ever known what that word meant.

 

Frankly, MTD lineage will always say it is about love and everything being good. No yin and yang, just acceptance and experience while learning of the world. It isn't lao tse's tao, because that is one that honestly I won't see come to the light of day anytime soon. But contemporary traditions have, and of course there are sparse mo pai teachings here and there. But this is a nice tangent.

 

But this is my path, the one I choose with every decision I make and it is not for me to say that it would suit everyone, but for now I am content with the journey I am on.

 

Who said you made the choice? Playing devil's advocate (you know I love doing that) what if the sum of the experiences were driving you to this conclusion - one that can change within a nanosecond?

 

Choice is a powerful thing. But ultimately, in terms of influence and life, we really don't have a choice. We are open to both choices and also no choice, but the intonation that has driven spirituality post secret is that life can be controlled such that I [not me] can get whatever I desired.

 

That's not necessarily the case. You can't get whatever you want. And to try stymies the entire lived experience and attaches to an idea that may never come to fruition try as you might.

 

On a personal level, I always say to my students or my friends to never make my mistake and to be better than I could ever be at that point in my life. Part of that is not attaching to that idea. And the cacophony of ideas that drive such a belief.

 

My thought is that the natural state doesn't exist. Some have a natural inclination to meditate - karma. Some do not - karma. The driving force behind what is "natural" is our karmic stock. And while there is a disagreement, I don't mind. I enjoy them. A lot. An exchange of ideas is just so darn Socratic right? Ring any fun bells for you =)

 

From the time I wrote and posted this, it seemed it disappeared. Very interesting. Thank god I type my posts beforehand and keep a photographic record of my time stamps

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From the time I wrote and posted this, it seemed it disappeared. Very interesting. Thank god I type my posts beforehand and keep a photographic record of my time stamps

You're not on the list for preposting moderation that I know of, so I will pass on your comment to our administrator Felix.

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Why do we meet good person A or bad person B?

 

Karma.

 

It is a living, breathing entity underlying reality composed of the total sum of our past goods and our past bads that ultimately leads to God giving humanity the good ol' second (or multiple) try.

 

This is just the age-old "peasant" or "common" ("layman") interpretation of the concept, something like the way American revivalist preachers and "televangelists" have interpreted the ideas expressed in the Bible.

 

The underlying concept has nothing to do with "good" and "bad".

 

Don't forget, even the Bible describes the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil as the fall of mankind. This knowledge, or "way", is essentially the opposite of the way attributed to Lao Tzu.

 

Yin and yang is a completely different, yet similar bag of tea in that yin and yang do create what we see and how we see it. Especially in terms of development. But it isn't karma. Yin and yang is a distinct aspect of reality to which I really only know the descriptions according to manisfestations of energy in and out of the body (frankly I should know that). Granted, I Ching binds it to everything without exclusion, but in terms of karma, there's a deisgnation.

 

No, yin/yang is merely descriptive of the way all phenomena manifest and un-manifest. This is a central concept in all ancient religions and spiritual traditions, no matter what it is called by them. The concept of "karma" derives from this directly, although Hindus do not call it yin/yang. Additionally in Taoism is the 5 transformations of energy or "5 elements", which describes the further movement of manifested phenomena, and which can most easily be seen in the seasons and the functioning of bodily organs. All of these have nothing whatsoever to do with "good" and "bad" behavior and God giving anyone a "second try".

 

While many have beliefs against such a thing, I won't be idealistic to say someone who has bound yin and yang and escaped reincarnation hasn't killed or been affiliated with people who have killed and conquered. Burden of the beast. This is the path of power. Emphasis on opening mind and heart is a drastic turn from the power aspect of it all.

 

This is, please pardon me, almost beyond laughable. I mean, have you ever actually seen one of these guys kill someone? Of course, you haven't (yes, I'm psychic, so I know). Have you yourself killed anyone? (again, nope) We could hear this kind of talk in a playground somewhere. Be careful on that "path of power" of yours!

 

One lesson I learned is that in order to meet a master at a high level you must be able to be in stillness for 2 hours. It's not an easy feat...lol. AT ALL.

 

Is this a tongue-in-cheek thing?

 

What could such a thing possibly mean? What "master" have you met at a "high level"?

 

My thought is that the natural state doesn't exist.

 

I believe that you think that - but it does, has, and will long after people have done whatever they are going to do. For example, everything making the Earth is coming from outside the Earth, not on or in it. That isn't going to stop even if humans destroy the whole environment with chemicals and radiation and idiocy. All will return to the natural state, as are all roads and structures - which must be constantly re-paved and maintained and painted just to delay them from being returned to their natural state while they are being used.

 

- Sascha

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I will certainly have fun with this =)

 

This is just the age-old "peasant" or "common" ("layman") interpretation of the concept, something like the way American revivalist preachers and "televangelists" have interpreted the ideas expressed in the Bible.

 

Actually, that's karma, a living breathing entity that dictates the experiences a person has. That is also a scholarly definition used in various different sources of Asian study for hundreds of years. Now if you consider it peasant, it is probably because you hold a higher than thou attitude. Which of course is perfectly fine.

 

However, that's a huge reason why several masters don't teach more people - because of an assumed idea of bullish westerners that assume to know the concept and won't unyield to understand the master's interpretation of the phenomenon. In this case, how can you fill a tea cup that's already full of water?

 

Much of what you post is in a similar vein, but I'm choosing to represent that point. And to that I say, perfectly well. But such a stance truly stymies you from something I feel is quite fantastic. And it is with sheer irony that you hold such an attitude and never ever studied, never experienced the other side, and yet you give a stance as if you're an authority. I can send a CV of all of my teachers over the past three years, who are pretty big figures within tao. Both of whom have some notoriety for both good and bad things.

 

Can you do the same? I mean you probably can because you know so much about it and conclude as such without seeing such phenomenon, right =)

 

This is, please pardon me, almost beyond laughable. I mean, have you ever actually seen one of these guys kill someone? Of course, you haven't (yes, I'm psychic, so I know).

Actually...I have. Way to go psychic =/

2010 we had a few demonstrations of another teacher who performed 2 tasks. One of which was draw essence from a turtle and draw the essence of a bull - which led to their deaths. Same thing occurred with a tree previously as well as a good healing afterward.

I'm shocked you didn't pick that up.

In addition, let's not forget any master who deems that they have taught someone in a way that would ultimately lead to their detriment would kill immediately. Even Liping...So I'm afraid so far with your posts you're way off base. Although, it's probably due to above, which is fine. Bravado and the like.

But now live that other side. Which you sort of haven't. Same with medicine, same with a myriad of other things.

Anyone, and I mean anyone, can stand back on their heels and say it is this way. I mean I surely did for a long time. Didn't experience one iota of things. I thought omg because I read a book or two, things are this way. When in fact, experiencing the phenomenon woke me up. But I'm just preaching to a wall. Anyone got a sledgehammer =)

Is this a tongue-in-cheek thing?

 

No I'm serious. But again, how could you know what stillness is? I mean you even got it wrong that I never saw people die from such things...le shrugs =/

 

So let me see if I grab this. You assume things, but then when you realize something as simple as stillness, you have no idea...fascinating indeed. When stillness is at heart every single concept that has been listed by me in this thread.

 

So then, why would I, take you as an authority here? If I'm an objective viewer of this thread, what makes you an authority?

 

But then the opposite can be said of me

 

What makes me an authority?

 

I'm not. I'm just a guy that was blessed with a myriad of experiences that sees a better way for mental cultivation that is easily verified through the past beliefs regardless of belief system. But that's just me. It doesn't make me an authority, but I am someone that's experienced everything I listed in this thread.

 

In addition, you should probably read up on I Ching. Your under grossed estimation of yin and yang, which underlie much of reality in terms of chinese cultivation is quite wrong.

 

May I suggest reading Chuang Tse, who in the past, paved a large way of binding yin and yang in the body leading to generation of taiji qi?

 

But then what is this taiji qi anyway?

 

Best start to research...come back to the thread after that. At least then we will be on the same page. But it's just a suggestion. Not mandatory. Knowing a bit from how you post, you may not read.

 

But that's your karma...

 

And Victoria thanks because it was a bit bizarre. I posted the thread before I left for the last day of the convention. Odd it just disappeared

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Actually, that's karma, a living breathing entity that dictates the experiences a person has.

 

This is like saying that osmosis is a "living breathing entity".

 

That is also a scholarly definition used in various different sources of Asian study for hundreds of years.

 

Show me some scholarly sources from "hundreds of years" ago defining karma as a "living breathing entity" and maybe I'd believe you.

 

However, that's a huge reason why several masters don't teach more people - because of an assumed idea of bullish westerners that assume to know the concept and won't unyield to understand the master's interpretation of the phenomenon. In this case, how can you fill a tea cup that's already full of water?

 

Speaking of bullish assumptions - what makes you even think I'm a "westerner"?

 

I can send a CV of all of my teachers over the past three years, who are pretty big figures within tao.

 

Post that CV. If it shows 10+ yrs of study with any master, I'll merely wonder what went wrong. You mention Wang Liping - if I contact him and ask him if you are his advanced student for many years he will say "yes"? Or, did you merely attend a seminar or something?

 

"Pretty big figures within Tao"? Hilarious! We are ALL "pretty big figures within the tao", and pretty small ones too!

 

Can you do the same? I mean you probably can because you know so much about it and conclude as such without seeing such phenomenon, right =)

 

What was that you were saying about bullish assumptions? I mean, you are making them in every paragraph!

 

The only things I have to write about my experiences are what I have already written in this and other threads on this forum. I believe they show what I have studied and what I know. Other than that, although I can easily enjoy this kind of "online adolescent ego" dialog, I have nothing whatsoever to prove to someone like you in such a dialog. Please consider me a complete idiot if you like - if you choose for some reason of your own to believe in such a thing. If you somehow need to make me low and you high, then go right ahead. My words about natural order are still sitting there waiting to be read as opposed to stiffly attacked in attempts at ego fluffing, and they will still be there after all egos are fluffed and flubbed and faked to whatever degree of imaginary satisfaction you or anyone requires.

 

If that ever ends, just take a look at what I wrote.

 

we had a few demonstrations of another teacher who performed 2 tasks. One of which was draw essence from a turtle and draw the essence of a bull - which led to their deaths. Same thing occurred with a tree previously as well as a good healing afterward.

 

So you are now saying that you saw a man kill, not a human being, but a bull, by "pointing his finger" at it?

 

I do not believe it. I do not believe you saw a bull die this way. Nor a tree. I do not at all believe that you personally saw these things.

 

In addition, let's not forget any master who deems that they have taught someone in a way that would ultimately lead to their detriment would kill immediately. Even Liping...

 

Let's ask him. I have a feeling that if we send him your quote he will laugh.

 

No I'm serious. But again, how could you know what stillness is? I mean you even got it wrong that I never saw people die from such things...

 

You yourself just wrote that it was a turtle and a bull (or a tree!?) and not a person! I still write that you never saw any human being die because a man waved his finger at them. And not a bull either.

 

Tell us who did the killing and we'll just contact them to verify it, and that you were there as a witness.

 

So let me see if I grab this. You assume things, but then when you realize something as simple as stillness, you have no idea...fascinating indeed. When stillness is at heart every single concept that has been listed by me in this thread.

 

How arrogant is it to make assumptions about another person's stillness?

 

You must be really hurting in some way even to make the attempt. Is this what you mean by a "better way of mental cultivation" that you have found? Is it to insult and minimize others to artificially inflate your own ego?

 

In addition, you should probably read up on I Ching. Your under grossed estimation of yin and yang, which underlie much of reality in terms of chinese cultivation is quite wrong.

 

,,,Best start to research...come back to the thread after that. At least then we will be on the same page. But it's just a suggestion. Not mandatory. Knowing a bit from how you post, you may not read.

 

Not that this matters in this type of exchange, but I would be willing to bet that I have actually spent more time studying the I Ching than you have been alive. There would apparently be no gain from winning that bet anyway.

 

- Sascha

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